If I Should Fall from Grace: The Shane MacGowan Story (2001) Movie Script
and when I hear the cannons roar
and the the bloody shites of war...???
well my old man was uhh in charge
was uhh in apartment
around to see about a job in Dublin
because they don't even
have a store in Dublin... yeah?
right and what... I don't even
they was doing some kind of
no he was in the same old
no but it's the same kind of
fucking... nowhere... fucking
I'm nowhere now and I will
be nowhere when I die
it's a joke... you know what I mean?
it's like they said... it's a ??? you know?
but I mean like I'm clinically insane
Shane's decided that he's
clinically insane because he has...
I haven't decided... I remembered
you know what I mean?
you remembered you were?
and I'll be... like it's not that...
that's just the first time they did it
yeah?
'bout seven countries now... you know?
you're clinically insane in 7 countries?
yeah
like doing... doing you know like... tests
you know... psychological tests on ???
he had a brilliant brain I mean
that's all I know
just didn't have it a few...
a few billion cells later ehh?
I started off as a healthy, fucking
Tipperary farm boy you know what I mean?
I came over here and degenerated
into a... into a... into a...???
and a drunkard and drug user and thief
it was very very difficult
to get employment in Ireland
in the 60's you know... it
was very difficult indeed
uhh... there was very
little employment really
many many people had to go abroad
to either England or somewhere else
America or somewhere else
to actually earn a living
and... uhh... Maurice was one of those
really so we uhh we had to go to London
we started off in Ealing
which I hated with a great hatred
having... coming from Dublin
it was a real dreary London suburb
we tried to leave Shane in Ireland
as much as possible when he was young
during his holidays
he always returned to Ireland
the house my mother was brought up in
and I was brought up in
for a large part of my life
is a very remote townland
yeah... called Carney Commons
like... which is in the parish of Finnoe
it's near the town of Borrisokane
that's my home
my official home
that's where I live when I'm not
staying in London because of business
and the band being based in London
although they're all Irish... yeah?
and. . . uhh. . . when I'm
not touring. . . you know...
his heart and soul always lay
in Ireland in Tipperary
that's where his spiritual home was
it's where... you know... the whole
his heart was there really
I came from a musical family
we always sang and... and
most people played an instrument
and my mother was... uhh... you
know... one of those ???
for singing and dancing and
singing in Irish as well
my memory from the earliest days is a
house of music and song and story-telling
they all... practically all played
instruments. . . you know... concertina
mellodion, piano... what you
you know... name it they played it
and... and so therefore it was also
what I would call an open house
I suppose really it was a house
that everybody gravitated to
he was singing from a very early age
and acting as he was singing songs
do you know... do you remember
the Hole In The Bucket?
remember that song?
Oh Lord!
and he was only two-and-a-half
he was that fast
and it was a scream to look at him
yeah... he's amazing
okay when I started going to school
in England like... you know
like... uhh... that was back in '87
right... you know... like
that was a horrific
fucking change of. . . uhh. . . life
we moved down to Tunbridge Wells
we had quite a nice little place there
and after a while there
we... we decided to go to London
to the famous Barbican
where all the trouble
broke loose... you know because
Therese wasn't able to handle
the built up aspects of London you know
it's on a huge scale
and the Barbican was a
massive sort of fortress
the family all became
very emotionally disturbed
it was a situational
disturbance basically
we had loads of good times
don't get me wrong... right? yeah?
but at a certain stage of
the game... right? yeah?
like uhh... yeah... I mean I... I started
doing the normal teenage
things... you know
and I got knicked... you know?
he was getting into trouble
at his school... you know?
he was getting into trouble there
for various things and then he...
I think he was doing a bit of
drug-taking at that stage
the doctor had put me on Valium
because I had a nervous breakdown
after my mum had one... yeah?
that's a heavy dosage
it's not as heavy as what he had her on
she was on real zombie stuff... yeah?
I used to go out every morning
and kick her to see if she was alive
you know what I mean... right?
I had to go into the drug
ward of a mental hospital and
uhh... I stayed in the hospital
called Bethelehem... like
the main... one of the big ones
it's the main one in London
he overdid the drugs
no two ways about that
I mean that was the case... I mean
so he rebelled... really...
at that stage... you know?
perhaps he did it a bit earlier
than people used to rebel
at that time in those days. . . you know?
Shane gave up the formal education system
at the invitation of the establishment
at around twelve or so
he'd been caught with cannabis
or some nonsense like that
and... umm... we were invited around
to the... uhh... headmaster's study
a fellow called Ray... a right wanker
and... uhh... we went down there
anyway... the two of us
and... uhh... he talked about you know
the terrible crime that
Shane had committed
I listened to all this... and... uhh
and I said, "What do you
want to do about it?"
and he said, "Well, I'd prefer if
Shane didn't come back next term."
I said, "Fine, you know,
I don't want him to come back
to this stupid, fucking
cunt of a place, anyway. " you know?
that was more or less how it ended
and I went off
do you want to go back and
see your old teacher?
what do I want to... Spellman?
no I don't think I have to
my dad did a pretty good job in there
I think he's probably exiled himself
to somewhere far away... you know?
well I think he had him up...
up on the... fucking thrown against
the wall... you know?
you know shouting and cursing
and being a racist prick you know
I mean he had a happy childhood
I mean uhh... the education
didn't spoil that in any way
he just didn't contribute to his
development in any way
we got on basically that
I got kicked out of school
because I was such an outrageous
little turd in England... right?
I was obviously turning into
a complete scumbag
right... you know what I mean?
the more time I spent
in England right... yeah?
right... yeah... you know what I mean?
yeah? like... from being a decent person
yeah... like uhh... you'd notice it
tell us about uhh... falling in love...
where'd you meet?
in a pub
why did I ask that question. . .
why did I ask that question
his best friend was a friend of mine
- Spider the tin whistle player
- oh I tell ya
and it was because of him
that we kept meeting
and then there was one day
I just looked at him and saw beauty
where before I'd seen hideous
-arrogance and...
- obnoxiousticity
I think he's such a strong personality
and has such a sense of... he's so spirited
and he has so much a sense of adventure
and so much fearlessness around
um... around doing things in public
doing things like going on stage
starting bands
umm... going out dressed up
in all kinds of weird clothes
and getting into all kinds of trouble
things that I wouldn't have
had the nerve to do myself
that's... that's what I find so appealing is
that you know... umm...
the sheer nerve...
and the... and the exuberance...
and the imagination
what makes you happy?
you do
how do I make you happy?
it can't be explained in words... you know
maybe in Irish it could be... you know?
it's a larger vocabulary... you know? like
- hmm?
- anything?
can we go in there?
hey... look at this... this bike
this is uhh... a fifty pound
bag for a junkie... right?
all he needs is a hacksaw... right?
take that bike up sell it tomorrow
what you wanna be a star?
i'll pay you back I'll be a star
yeah why not?
I'm all that stands between the
fact of fucking Irish culture and like
and uhh... the life of Irish culture
when I fell in love with him was when
I actually saw his sensitive side
and that was quite early on
that was... you know... ummm
umm... maybe I was about 20?
so it would mean 14 years ago
sometimes I think he romanticizes me in
the same way that he romanticizes Ireland
or it's almost like the me that he
writes about doesn't really exist
and I'm a kind of an imaginary figure
like I'm not gonna ??? or something
it's obvious that it's not really me
it's a... yeah... romantic ideal
I think he's an idealist
taken to an extreme
he's not really as much of a realist
as he might like to think
we knew he was brilliant at writing
and English and all that kind of thing
and Maurice said, "I suppose you will
probably earn your living as a writer. "
He said, "I will, Dad, but not
in the way you're talking about. "
"I'll earn my living," he said,
"through music, writing through music,
because that's the way you
communicate with people now-a-days. "
"It's a much better form of,
lighter form of communication. "
I remember him saying that to me
you're a little bit pissed
are you? a little bit?
mostly
you're enjoying yourself
yeah
I suppose you see I thought
it might be more in the book form
rather than the... umm... sound form
but uhh... you know really
that's before twelve
I knew around twelve it wasn't
going to be that because
there was Bob Dylan blowing one ear out
and the Grateful Dead blowing the other
and so I knew there was
something going on there
well take my number and give me a ring
well give us your number then
you got a pen and paper?
yes I have...
now here you are
i want your phone number
do you want me to hold your
drink while you're at it?
I mean once I was out of
school I was alright you know
and I could use all the things
that were good about London
like the drugs and the clubs
and the loose women and
the Pistols were playing really good
rock and roll, hard rock and roll
and what's more they
were my generation
and what's more they were singing
about how boring London was
and... like... they were
being totally nihilistic
and that was the way I felt when I
go out and see 'em out of the bin you know
I was working at a shop
it wasn't a shop it was a stall
a market stall at the
end of Gerard Street
in Soho, in London
and one day Shane walked
into the stall and... like he was
uhh... he was slightly
shook looking is what I'd say
he had matted long hair
down to his shoulders
and heavily caked with one thing or other
I don't know what
and he looked a bit dazed
he said that he had... uhh... been
in hospital you know
I knew he was on pills or something
like that but he was lucid
whenever we started talking and... uhh...
he just started to hang around the shop
as soon as he discovered what
was happening in the punk scene
which was, "trust yourself,"
whatever talent you thought you had
and if uhh... you felt you could make
get out there and do it
and Shane did
there's one punk... the Sex Pistols
the rest of them are rubbish
I'm not interested
what's more I probably wouldn't
have been that interested in them
if Johnny Rotten hadn't been so
bloody obviously Irish you know
and made a big noise about it and
made such anti-English records... yeah?
no future
in England's dreamin'
punk was speed-fueled which was why
everybody was so bloody obnoxious you know
spitting in your face
and getting aggressive
and fighting and all the rest of it
but you know that was the scene
the youth scene
mods punks and so it was all speed
and that was... that would have
been the general drug speed and drink
God save the queen...
she ain't no human being...
she's made you a moron
potential h-bomb
he uhh... started producing a fanzine
the first I heard of his creative bent
and uhh... Shane came in with his fanzine
and started selling that
and then the next thing I knew
he was putting a band together
myself and my partner
in the shop at the time
decided we would try and manage the Nips
as they were then called
well actually they were called
the Nipple Erectors
but we had a problem in
that people didn't want
Nipple Erectors on posters
it was supposed to be sexist
which I could never understand
since everybody's got them
but umm... we had to shorten it
from the Nipple Erectors to the Nips
he's well-known as a very good lyricist
a poet even for the
Pogues stuff that he writes
but even the stuff that he
was writing for the Nips
was um... even if you had
taken it out of the pop context
and put an air to it
it still would have been...
it could have been a Pogues song you know?
things like Gabrielle you know?
let's go down to the old West End
you know? like we used to do
when you were my girlfriend...
take the 73 to the city...
you sitting there looking so pretty
the crap I wrote for the Nips
I could write in my sleep
you know it was pop you know
you know I mean... like
you know... I mean like
it was a...
it was a teenage anthem you know
I've never stopped writing adolescent crap
it's just some people can't tell
the real... you know... pop
from the real thing you know?
he always said he wanted to be a
pop star always you know and he
said he wasn't going to hang around
he was going to be a pop star
and when he first like... when
the Noisey Boyseys first began
which later became the Pogues
I remember we went down
to see the first gig
must have been just about the
first gig down in Steve Stanger's club
and there was us and one or two others
and umm... a bunch of squatties I think
who were just back from northern
Ireland who were all eating chips
and proceeded to pelt the
stage with chips throughout
and there was Shane up on the stage
sort of singing Paddy Works On The Railroad
and and Irish songs
it should have occurred to me
it was so fucking obvious
a fucking thing to do
to fucking play really good
Irish songs to a young audience
you know the Pogues could never
have been an Irish band indigenously
it could never have happened in Ireland
I'm... I'm absolutely certain of that
it would never have happened from
within the island
and the Pogues needed to happen
from the Diaspora if you like
in Mary Robinson's uhh memorable phrase
it... it... it uhh needed to happen from...
it's like there's two Irelands
the people who live on the island
and there's people who went away
or who are second generation
and very often uhh... you know
that gives a different point of view
on the culture
on what it is to be Irish
he affected a lot of Irish
people in London at the time
for the better in a huge way
just by making it possible
to kind of claim back
umm some sense of pride in being Irish
because like putting it into context
you had the Balcombe street seige
you had bombs going off
right left and center
it was... there was a lot of
racism in London at the time
and a lot of anti-Irish talk
uhh every time there was another bomb
so for him to turn around and
kind of celebrate his Irish culture
was a... was a... was a very strange thing
and... and to give voice to
his experience of it was...
like in the lyrics and when he began
writing the songs and that was what was
such a huge revelation with the Pogues
all I did was take extremely
old-fashioned Irish music
proper Irish music
paeans or old-fashioned... you know
in terms of people like
Horslips and Clancy
and Diarmaid yeah... right
and like uhh you know
like you know... you know the music you know
ceilidh music and you know jigs reels
like lyrics about
drinking fucking fighting you know
like uhh you know romantic lyrics about
love and rebellion everything else yeah?
I am going I am going where the
streams of whiskey are flowing
it's not exactly an Erin moor
in the county Galway
one summer's evening
in the month of May
I met a damsel
both fair and handsome
she nearly took my breath away
is it now?
the day the record arrived
in uhhh... you know
it didn't leave the turntable for days
it was the most exciting thing that
had aired in a long long time
you must remember this is the early 80's
where the charts were full of
extremely bland and mechanical music
ahh... it looked like you know... after the
after the sort of the first
uhh... blossom of the punk movement
uhhh... it seemed to all go
horribly wrong very quickly
uhh... the music went backward
retreated back into its
sort of soporific state
so it's almost hard
really now in retrospect to say just
how exciting that was to hear an album
played by human beings with
real instrument and so on
it was revolutionary for its time
the stuff we play like is... is uhh
well it's more fucked up basically
you know because like... because like
you are more fucked up
if you live in London than
if you live in uhh...
you're not more fucked up than if you
live in Belfast or
somewhere like that obviously
but you're more fucked up than uhh...
if you live in a nice little town
in Tipperary or somewhere like that
Elvis Costello had produced
my record Captains and Kings
so I brought Elvis to see the Pogues
which were obviously the
happening band in London at the time
and I realize in retrospect actually
that what happened that night is
that Elvis fell in love twice over
once with the Pogues and then
with the Pogue's bass player
all that happened I think
instantaneously I realize now and
and he went on to produce
Rum Sodomy and the Lash
is it hard to produce uhh...
this kind of sound?
no no uhhh... people
got the uhh... have a
misapprehension that the band can't play
the band can play really well
the sound's changed because Costello
came in and produced it right?
and the way he produces is like
really kind of clinical
and kind of like you know?
the best way to record us is
live you know in the studio
with as few takes as possible on the vocal
but Costello believed in hundreds of takes
making me do the vocal hundreds of times
and then kind of splitting
it up from bits of all that
to make up a Frankenstein monster
yes a word out here and
a word out there. . . you know?
he'd drop in between uhh... you know?
despite the fiddles uhh. . . like
Frankenstein productions like you know?
the raw energy comes through
you know what I mean?
it's a great album because
it's great fucking music
it's a great band you know what I mean?
it's great music you know what I mean?
and it wasn't all written
by me you know what I mean?
i mean half was written by me... yeah?
and like... you know... it's a great band
in the peak of their... of their... of their
of their uhh... of their uhh...
they're in their peak
you know what I mean? you know?
when I'm at home... you know?
I... uhh... watch telly... listen to music
read books... and play the guitar... yeah?
and... uhh... every now
and then I get an idea
you find a riff that
sounds good... like... yeah
and then a melody suggest itself
but really... it's just that
I don't know how it happens
it's like Mozart said...
it's music from heaven
or hell... depending on whether you
like it... you know?
either... uhh... why aren't there shares
why hasn't the church got...
oh yeah the church have got shares
but what are they trading under?
you know what I mean?
is it orange juice or uhh... light metals
err... uhh... uhh... is Bill Gates a
fucking front for uhh... for uhh... El Papa?
is Bill Gates the new Jesus Christ?
after Rum Sodomy and the Lash uhh...
the band obviously altered a little
in as much as I came
in later on in that album
and then Terry Woods came in
and then uhh Darrel Hunter
replaced Cait O'Reardon on bass
so the sound was changing
and developing and
and different... different elements
were coming into play
I thought he was an
incredible lyric writer
great singer
and the songs were really beautiful
and then the next album came out
If I Should Fall With Grace...
is that right?
umm... and I just thought some
of the lyric writing on
that was uhh... was unbelievable
umm... kind of head and shoulders above
what anyone else was doing
umm... it had uhh... a simplicity
to it that was just
and beauty about it was
just extraordinary I thought
the long gap between
Rum Sodomy and the Lash and
If I Should Fall From Grace With God
which was a lot to do with
uhh record company problems
which are far too boring to go into
but it delayed recording
a new album for awhile
but in retrospect that was the best thing
that could have happened
because we had... we'd use that time
to develop a kind of new sound
well a bigger version of the same sound
and to just build confidence
in what the band were doing
there was... uhh... energy in
in the way that the way that he wrote
uhh from my point of view
i was... i was writing very different
sorts of lyrics I think
and for a lot of different reasons
from... from as early on as I
can remember actually
umm I was trying to make an effort
in some way... to show that I could write
and that was the difference
between I think me and Shane
and that's what made
Shane such a great writer
was his complete effortlessness
umm... it just looked like it
just sort of dropped out of him
and uhh... and there wasn't
a bad line amongst it
it's just... just beautiful stuff
what? has Mickey gone home?
this is where Francis Bacon used to drink
he was Irish and queer
and a right wanker I think
hello there!
Pascal
C'mere you bastard
[speaking Greek?]
this is Michael this is the
uhh... proprietor and
and this is Pascal...
the beautiful proprietoress
hostess from... uhh... from Greece
what do you want?
I should never stop telling you
the drinks are incredibly
wonderful... sorrowful
- shut up you asshole
- uhh
like singing acting... like they invented
tragedy they invented comedy
and tonight's tragi-comedy
is just about to commence
when I was a sponge-diver
I dived 14 million feet into
the sea to pick up a sponge
and did you use it?
I sold it to an American
his music is very spontaneous
and it comes... it seems
to just flow through him
when he's writing music
it seems that he has music in his head
and it sort of comes through...
and I think that the state of mind
he's in when hes when he's writing
is quite detached from
what we would think of as
a normal day-to-day way of functioning
he's not logical... he doesn't umm
he doesn't try to write music
he allows music to be...
to come through him
I mean I think... I think Shane is a
kind of master at... uhh
the opening lines of songs... are
always you know uhh... unbelievably good
you know Christmas eve babe
in the drunk tank
every piece got completely erased
beginning to end by the media
every note okay? like I mean apart
from a few notes by Jim
I mean a little riff
by Jim you know... okay?
but I'm saying like the orchestral
arrangement was by me... yeah? you know?
Steve Lilywhite was talking about using us
uhh... a machine could do it
you know what I mean?
I said, "No way!"
it's gotta be the real thing yeah
we almost had a number one single with
Fairytale of New York... yeah
but the Pet Shop Boys had other ideas
with their Elvis Presley cover
uhh... but even they would
have to have conceded I think
that morally we were the
number one record that week
uhh... it's the greatest Christmas
song since White Christmas you know uhh
and Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas
those three... they're the alltime greats
I still think it's an extraordinary record
coming as it did out of nothing
and even though the first two
albums had primed people for kind of
what to expect with the Pogues
I don't think anyone for a second
expected the riches of
Fairytale of New York
I loved the boat... yeah?
you don't get treated like a piece of shit
like you do on an airplane
unless you're a fucking executive
you know? like... yeah?
I liked that boat quite a lot... yeah?
there or there or over there?
no... how about there or there?
double gin and tonic
lots of ice slice of lemon
glad to meet you
I'm so glad you made it
how you doing? how you doing man?
you got your hair... your beard cut off
aye... sort of... yeah
the impression I think a lot of people get
is that... you know...
it's Shane MacGowan... crazy guy
there were fifteen crazy guys
the crew as well
we fell around the world
I don't know how we got from A to B
we were all piss drunk
all of the time
I never envied uhh... Joey
Cashman's job as tour manager
I thought that was...
that must be...
what's the worst job you ever had?
I was the Pogues tour manager
yeah... great
there's no such thing as the good old days
oh no... that's not true... Joey no
that's not true
as tour manager I would be...
I would organize the
rooms and that at reception
and uhh guys who were particularly drunk
so I asked them to stay outside
so that the hotel people wouldn't see them
before we could at least get
our keys and get into the hotel
so... I was in the middle of doing that
and there were quite a few bands staying
there and I heard a bit of a commotion
I turned around and... uhh
Shane was being umm... helped in
by Big Charlie and somebody else
they had an arm each over their shoulders
and he had uhh... his leather
trousers were down around his knees
he had no underpants on
and they were dragging him along
his feet were just going like that
and uhh... I just said to
the receptionist you know
"What kind of a hotel is this?"
you know... what are these people
as if I had nothing to do with them
do you want to hear what it says?
Shane MacGowan and the Pogues
and the Pogues is in the same size
letters as my name for some reason... right?
you know Shane MacGowan's influence on
Irish music cannot be overestimated
I don't think it's true to say
that all of us were drinking too much
but certainly for some people in the band
alcohol had become a major problem
MacGowan's deceptively simple songs
I'd like to know what's
so bloody simple about them
try and play them... cunt
contain worldly words of life
and lifetimes of experience
and he compresses all manner
of human passion into his work
desperate DESPERATE to communicate
everything he has lived and found
down to the last ounce of
commitment and urgency
if you had issues with alcohol
there was no better... trust me
there was no better place in the world
to bury them and hide them
than in the Pogues you know?
because the whole culture
that built around the band
uhh... positively you know... demanded it
a couple of nice ones
when you're that age
that's what you want to do
you want to um...
you want to drink too much
and take too many drugs
and stay up all night
and behave badly
and of course you... know they
were just having a good time
I knew he drank alot
but it wasn't so much that he drank alot
but that he seemed to be doing it
more out of desperaton at that point
more as a way of avoiding people
than as a way of joining in
whereas when I first met him
he was a very sociable sort of person
and he would drink umm... with people
you know with me or with whoever
when it got really bad
I could see him like...
put down a bottle of gin
before he went on stage just to umm
just to make himself feel
able to get on stage I think
I love Them
I love the dance stuff
I love the dance stuff... Astral Weeks
- I like all the albums
- I love Them stuff
- I like all his music
- Astral Weeks
I think it was a pivotal moment
because they made that
move from being in control
to being a part of somebody else's agenda
and Shane certainly changed at that point
he seemed quite disillusioned and cynical
about the whole business of
of being on the road
about performing
it seemed to have taken
a huge toll on his psyche
he seemed to have no
space to just be himself
they started to act like rock stars
they started to think like rock stars
they were great musicians
I mean... like... so what?
you know what I mean? you know?
I mean... uhh... you know
but I mean... like... uhh...
that doesn't give you any... rights
you know what I mean? you know?
above any other human being
you know what I mean? you know?
there was a... there was... umm
and underlying sort of resentment
against Shane in the band
because all the media would
want to speak to Shane... all right?
umm... and... of course
it was alot more than that
let's just say one...
one particular subject
and they... they liked
to think about themselves
as a nine piece band
where everybody had an equal input
and equal importance
so... sometimes I felt that... umm
people were objecting to his opinions
not based upon his actual opinions
but simply because they just got fed up
with it being
Shane Shane Shane Shane
it was never my band
we were a democratic band... you know?
and then in the end
like I wasn't involved
in the democracy anymore
the system was to blame... yeah?
we thought we could beat the system
and we couldn't
we had set out to beat the system
they said... you know... we don't
really want you to go... you know?
I mean... we need you
I mean all this... you know?
you know... give us a
couple more years... I mean
you know... uhh... you know
you know... I didn't like...
because I don't want to fight or anything
you know... I mean
I was easy persuaded to
carry on... you know
things will get better... you know
but things got worse
somehow from the outside
there was this farcical idea
that the Pogues were allowing
Shane MacGowan to kill himself
that in fact we might
even have welcomed the idea
and nothing could be farther from the truth
we cared very deeply about Shane
and still do
ultimately we're his best friends
I mean... you know...
he might speak ill of us now
all these years later occasionally
but he doesn't really mean it
it was like a bunch of guys
who just cared about each very much
but like there
there always comes a point
where you can only help
somebody so much
I wanted to make an Irish
album for the Ulsterhouse (?) kids
so if you get out ???
and you listen... it's a piece of love
you'll find that all
my tracks are in the house beat (?)
the touring was getting to me
and the... uhh... constant
arguments and stuff... you know?
we were starting to sound
tired and... uhh... jaded
yes... you know... i mean it was
sounding like we should call it a day
you know
we should have... like... called
it a day at that stage... yeah
if we'd left it at that note
we would have got out a bit
graciously... you know
but making Hell's Ditch
was a ridiculous mistake
basically the problem
is... like... the singing...
the singing isn't as good as it could be
the playing isn't either actually
but the singing is definitely very...
my voice is deteriorating
you know I remember seeing
the uhh... seeing the Pogues
in some festival in France
the show was falling to... falling to bits
umm... Shane didn't know
what songs they were playing and it was
you know it was one of those kind of
those kind of classic uhh... moments
and the... the worse Shane became
the more the audience kind of adored him
and until the concert was
pretty much unlistenable
they were playing some horrendous kind
of Rolling Stones cover
or something like that
and... uhh... really
pandering to this audience
in this way and I found that
from a band that could be so great
quite kind of sickening to watch actually
and I find that element... I always found
I always found that element of the Pogues
kind of disappointing in a way
because they could be so great
you know but then again
at the sound check of that concert
Shane was in better form and came on
and just sang the song with
his hands in his pockets
singing this song at the sound check
and I've never heard anything so beautiful
it was just. . . you know. . .
it was just unbelievable
Hell's Ditch was my own sort of uhh
crash landing if you like
I knew at that point that I had
a serious problem with it and that
it was going to be a tough one to beat
because it's the equivalent of being in a
brewery and trying to stop drinking
being on the road with
the Pogues... you know
but that's not to say that there wasn't
personal responsibility involved
I was prepared to take
the personal responsibility
but at that point in my life
I found it very very difficult
it was just easier to succummb
to the... to the drink... you know
I was always saying, "We gotta
stop touring so much."
you know what I mean... you know?
but they wouldn't... they didn't
agree with me and so on... you know
so they obviously didn't think
they were paying a high price you know
if they think they paid a high price now
you know... I hate to say I told you so...
did we sack Shane MacGowan
there is the question
no... it's just never as simple as that
what actully happened was
it was becoming very obvious that the band
wanted to carry on playing at something
like the level we were playing
and Shane was getting more and more
disenchanted with that and wanted to
spend more time at home
and mainly the way he was telling us that
was by the inconsistency of his behaviour
you know Shane's not the sort of a person
who can tell you in a straight way
look I really don't...
I'm just not digging this
so he would have to go around the houses
and tell you in some complicated way
that you eventually get the message
and then he would make it look like
you're telling him this... you know?
so that it would be all you fault...
you're telling him he can't do this anymore
in fact he'd just gone to extreme lengths
to make you understand that that's the case
ahh... and Shane is magnificent at
twisting everything around to that purpose
so I think he probably
thinks we sacked him yes
but he knows in his heart that it's not true
they fired him... I was at the meeting
they fired him
I was venomously against it
it was in Japan after a particularly
bad couple of years as far as
some people were concerned
but the reason Shane
wasn't performing as well
and the reason he withdrew and
got as out of it as he did was because of
the situation that he found himself in
they were trying to phase
Irish music out altogether
you know what I mean?
which is insane
you know what I mean?
I said, "What do you mean?"
that's what we do... is Irish music
you know... that's what we do
that's what we do
like the Specials do ska and the
and the fucking Rolling Stones do R and B
you know what I mean?
what we do is Irish music you know
rural Irish music
you know emotional guts dance music
we got that... bypasses the end like
and hits you in the gut...
and hits you in the heart...
and hits you in the soul
oh. . . I am
I've been a babe magnet
for quite a while you know
I gave up trying to impress girls
you know what I mean
and they started getting
interested in me yeah
just think now...
is there a hot tub?
well I mean with ??? the tub's gone yeah?
there's a sauna and swimming pool yeah?
I told you I'm going to
put a jacousi in the barn yeah?
you cannot become a babe
magnet if you're no good
know what I mean?
because girls tell other girls
what you're like you know what I mean
and like you might be really dishy
which I'm not you know what I mean?
but that wasn't my attraction
you know what I mean? like you know
girls said to other girls yeah?
- do you want to come in the Merc Shane?
- what?
- do you want to come in the Merc?
- yeah
- right I'll go get it
-I'll get my car though
- come in a decent car
- come in the Merc right
- come and try a piece of the Merc
- yeah come on and have a shot of the Merc
- first decent fucking car we ever had
- absolutely i quite agree
i quite agree... i couldn't agree more
you mean the last decent car
I've been reading all this stuff about you
this very public row between
you and Sinead O'Connor
she said she was going to shop you
for heroin... isn't that so?
and she did
I think it's bloody obvious that she's
out only for publicity
and like... at this stage of the game like
she doesn't... she doesn't even view it like
you know what I mean like
she'll do anything for publicity
you know what I mean?
I do believe she did do it
because she genuinely felt that
our relationship was worth saving
and she saw that I love Shane
and that Shane loves me
and she could see that very clearly
even though I couldn't really
at that point... see it
I was like ready to give up
I thought right, well you know I
cut my losses and see if I can find
some more satisfactory relationship
it may well have helped because
I think it did force Shane to think
even if he didn't want to think...
about what was going on and what...
you know and what I was unhappy about
and what he was doing and stuff
she's friends with
friends of my missus Vickie
she seems to believe
that she whatever did
with the best intentions you know?
so I don't give a fuck or anything
she's like you know
well she's got no right to
it's my life you know
I'm a fucking adult you know
I'm not the one to take a moral
high-ground about drug-taking
umm... in any way
umm... and what... Shane
feels is right for him is right for him
umm... myself I... I guess uhh...
I don't know... two years ago
I had to make a... a choice really
whether I was going to continue to
write and be an artist or whether
I was going uhh... to be a junkie
and that was pretty much the
choice that was being made
a year had gone by when the piano
just sort of sat in the corner of the room
staring back at me blankly
I wasn't doing anything
I wasn't able to a put a line on... on paper
and for me it became necessary to stop
and for me since I've stopped
I've been able to write with
much more energy
much more dedication
and much more concentration
than ever before
what Shane does is completely up to him
and has every right to do whatever he wants
and believe whatever he wants
that sounds like a sheep innit?
people often ask what Shane would be like
if he didn't drink but umm... it's funny
I don't ever really wonder about it
I don't ever really think about that
it seems to be so much a part
of what he's like
it seems almost as though that's
his purpose in life
is to write about drinking
I'm not saying that he only
writes about drinking
but to write about the type of things
that he does write about
and he encompasses quite alot
when I was young I washed the cars
when I was older I drank in bars
I don't know if he could
do it in the same way
if he was a different kind of person
and he lived his life differently
I don't know whether Shane terms
himself an alcoholic or not
Phil Chevron certainly ended up saying
I am an alcoholic and getting out of it
Terry Woods ended up saying
I am an alcoholic and getting out of it
Spider ended up saying
I am an alcoholic and getting out of it
Shane exhibited all of the characteristics
of the other three but just kept on going
- Joey
- what?
don't tell me they haven't
stuffed the olives for you
there's no gin... there's martini
we've survived... we survived the Pogues
you know I have been... I could easily be
dead now if there hadn't come a point
where I realized that
that was my next option
to decide whether or not
that was going to happen you know
you wanna go onstage? let's go
let's go... let's go here
you don't have to spend very long
on the road to know that you know
like you... you.. you can't be worried
about things like your health
and fucking like... like... uhh...
your parents being worried or like
you know what I mean? or like uhh...
the papers telling lies about you
whatever... you know what I mean?
you've got to say shit to all of that
you know what I mean?
I was just... what do I want to do?
I wanted... I want... I wanna be a mu...
what I always wanted to do was be a
professional musician you know
thank God I've ended up being
a professional musician
if he was out playing and wasn't
called in... for the rosary
there'd be... a bit of a row with him
Shane... whoever you were like...
you know John Jim George... you know
you know uhh... Bridget whatever
you know Maggie... Ryan you know
uhh yeah... you know?
it's the rosary... it's the rosary
and it's over the bed or
ahhh... it's gone away
and he's coming up... he's coming up
and aww... he went out
ahhh... almost there
oh yeah... he's coming up
he's coming up... he's coming up
ahhh... it's gone away
- what's the panic?
- ??? it's on in fucking Limerick
you know what I mean?
she's... two hours ago it's fucking starting
she was supposed to be coming
??? here... and you're speaking like that
well it's the cinma vrit you know?
I mean that's what they call it
as the french say
that means realistic cinema
and the the bloody shites of war...???
well my old man was uhh in charge
was uhh in apartment
around to see about a job in Dublin
because they don't even
have a store in Dublin... yeah?
right and what... I don't even
they was doing some kind of
no he was in the same old
no but it's the same kind of
fucking... nowhere... fucking
I'm nowhere now and I will
be nowhere when I die
it's a joke... you know what I mean?
it's like they said... it's a ??? you know?
but I mean like I'm clinically insane
Shane's decided that he's
clinically insane because he has...
I haven't decided... I remembered
you know what I mean?
you remembered you were?
and I'll be... like it's not that...
that's just the first time they did it
yeah?
'bout seven countries now... you know?
you're clinically insane in 7 countries?
yeah
like doing... doing you know like... tests
you know... psychological tests on ???
he had a brilliant brain I mean
that's all I know
just didn't have it a few...
a few billion cells later ehh?
I started off as a healthy, fucking
Tipperary farm boy you know what I mean?
I came over here and degenerated
into a... into a... into a...???
and a drunkard and drug user and thief
it was very very difficult
to get employment in Ireland
in the 60's you know... it
was very difficult indeed
uhh... there was very
little employment really
many many people had to go abroad
to either England or somewhere else
America or somewhere else
to actually earn a living
and... uhh... Maurice was one of those
really so we uhh we had to go to London
we started off in Ealing
which I hated with a great hatred
having... coming from Dublin
it was a real dreary London suburb
we tried to leave Shane in Ireland
as much as possible when he was young
during his holidays
he always returned to Ireland
the house my mother was brought up in
and I was brought up in
for a large part of my life
is a very remote townland
yeah... called Carney Commons
like... which is in the parish of Finnoe
it's near the town of Borrisokane
that's my home
my official home
that's where I live when I'm not
staying in London because of business
and the band being based in London
although they're all Irish... yeah?
and. . . uhh. . . when I'm
not touring. . . you know...
his heart and soul always lay
in Ireland in Tipperary
that's where his spiritual home was
it's where... you know... the whole
his heart was there really
I came from a musical family
we always sang and... and
most people played an instrument
and my mother was... uhh... you
know... one of those ???
for singing and dancing and
singing in Irish as well
my memory from the earliest days is a
house of music and song and story-telling
they all... practically all played
instruments. . . you know... concertina
mellodion, piano... what you
you know... name it they played it
and... and so therefore it was also
what I would call an open house
I suppose really it was a house
that everybody gravitated to
he was singing from a very early age
and acting as he was singing songs
do you know... do you remember
the Hole In The Bucket?
remember that song?
Oh Lord!
and he was only two-and-a-half
he was that fast
and it was a scream to look at him
yeah... he's amazing
okay when I started going to school
in England like... you know
like... uhh... that was back in '87
right... you know... like
that was a horrific
fucking change of. . . uhh. . . life
we moved down to Tunbridge Wells
we had quite a nice little place there
and after a while there
we... we decided to go to London
to the famous Barbican
where all the trouble
broke loose... you know because
Therese wasn't able to handle
the built up aspects of London you know
it's on a huge scale
and the Barbican was a
massive sort of fortress
the family all became
very emotionally disturbed
it was a situational
disturbance basically
we had loads of good times
don't get me wrong... right? yeah?
but at a certain stage of
the game... right? yeah?
like uhh... yeah... I mean I... I started
doing the normal teenage
things... you know
and I got knicked... you know?
he was getting into trouble
at his school... you know?
he was getting into trouble there
for various things and then he...
I think he was doing a bit of
drug-taking at that stage
the doctor had put me on Valium
because I had a nervous breakdown
after my mum had one... yeah?
that's a heavy dosage
it's not as heavy as what he had her on
she was on real zombie stuff... yeah?
I used to go out every morning
and kick her to see if she was alive
you know what I mean... right?
I had to go into the drug
ward of a mental hospital and
uhh... I stayed in the hospital
called Bethelehem... like
the main... one of the big ones
it's the main one in London
he overdid the drugs
no two ways about that
I mean that was the case... I mean
so he rebelled... really...
at that stage... you know?
perhaps he did it a bit earlier
than people used to rebel
at that time in those days. . . you know?
Shane gave up the formal education system
at the invitation of the establishment
at around twelve or so
he'd been caught with cannabis
or some nonsense like that
and... umm... we were invited around
to the... uhh... headmaster's study
a fellow called Ray... a right wanker
and... uhh... we went down there
anyway... the two of us
and... uhh... he talked about you know
the terrible crime that
Shane had committed
I listened to all this... and... uhh
and I said, "What do you
want to do about it?"
and he said, "Well, I'd prefer if
Shane didn't come back next term."
I said, "Fine, you know,
I don't want him to come back
to this stupid, fucking
cunt of a place, anyway. " you know?
that was more or less how it ended
and I went off
do you want to go back and
see your old teacher?
what do I want to... Spellman?
no I don't think I have to
my dad did a pretty good job in there
I think he's probably exiled himself
to somewhere far away... you know?
well I think he had him up...
up on the... fucking thrown against
the wall... you know?
you know shouting and cursing
and being a racist prick you know
I mean he had a happy childhood
I mean uhh... the education
didn't spoil that in any way
he just didn't contribute to his
development in any way
we got on basically that
I got kicked out of school
because I was such an outrageous
little turd in England... right?
I was obviously turning into
a complete scumbag
right... you know what I mean?
the more time I spent
in England right... yeah?
right... yeah... you know what I mean?
yeah? like... from being a decent person
yeah... like uhh... you'd notice it
tell us about uhh... falling in love...
where'd you meet?
in a pub
why did I ask that question. . .
why did I ask that question
his best friend was a friend of mine
- Spider the tin whistle player
- oh I tell ya
and it was because of him
that we kept meeting
and then there was one day
I just looked at him and saw beauty
where before I'd seen hideous
-arrogance and...
- obnoxiousticity
I think he's such a strong personality
and has such a sense of... he's so spirited
and he has so much a sense of adventure
and so much fearlessness around
um... around doing things in public
doing things like going on stage
starting bands
umm... going out dressed up
in all kinds of weird clothes
and getting into all kinds of trouble
things that I wouldn't have
had the nerve to do myself
that's... that's what I find so appealing is
that you know... umm...
the sheer nerve...
and the... and the exuberance...
and the imagination
what makes you happy?
you do
how do I make you happy?
it can't be explained in words... you know
maybe in Irish it could be... you know?
it's a larger vocabulary... you know? like
- hmm?
- anything?
can we go in there?
hey... look at this... this bike
this is uhh... a fifty pound
bag for a junkie... right?
all he needs is a hacksaw... right?
take that bike up sell it tomorrow
what you wanna be a star?
i'll pay you back I'll be a star
yeah why not?
I'm all that stands between the
fact of fucking Irish culture and like
and uhh... the life of Irish culture
when I fell in love with him was when
I actually saw his sensitive side
and that was quite early on
that was... you know... ummm
umm... maybe I was about 20?
so it would mean 14 years ago
sometimes I think he romanticizes me in
the same way that he romanticizes Ireland
or it's almost like the me that he
writes about doesn't really exist
and I'm a kind of an imaginary figure
like I'm not gonna ??? or something
it's obvious that it's not really me
it's a... yeah... romantic ideal
I think he's an idealist
taken to an extreme
he's not really as much of a realist
as he might like to think
we knew he was brilliant at writing
and English and all that kind of thing
and Maurice said, "I suppose you will
probably earn your living as a writer. "
He said, "I will, Dad, but not
in the way you're talking about. "
"I'll earn my living," he said,
"through music, writing through music,
because that's the way you
communicate with people now-a-days. "
"It's a much better form of,
lighter form of communication. "
I remember him saying that to me
you're a little bit pissed
are you? a little bit?
mostly
you're enjoying yourself
yeah
I suppose you see I thought
it might be more in the book form
rather than the... umm... sound form
but uhh... you know really
that's before twelve
I knew around twelve it wasn't
going to be that because
there was Bob Dylan blowing one ear out
and the Grateful Dead blowing the other
and so I knew there was
something going on there
well take my number and give me a ring
well give us your number then
you got a pen and paper?
yes I have...
now here you are
i want your phone number
do you want me to hold your
drink while you're at it?
I mean once I was out of
school I was alright you know
and I could use all the things
that were good about London
like the drugs and the clubs
and the loose women and
the Pistols were playing really good
rock and roll, hard rock and roll
and what's more they
were my generation
and what's more they were singing
about how boring London was
and... like... they were
being totally nihilistic
and that was the way I felt when I
go out and see 'em out of the bin you know
I was working at a shop
it wasn't a shop it was a stall
a market stall at the
end of Gerard Street
in Soho, in London
and one day Shane walked
into the stall and... like he was
uhh... he was slightly
shook looking is what I'd say
he had matted long hair
down to his shoulders
and heavily caked with one thing or other
I don't know what
and he looked a bit dazed
he said that he had... uhh... been
in hospital you know
I knew he was on pills or something
like that but he was lucid
whenever we started talking and... uhh...
he just started to hang around the shop
as soon as he discovered what
was happening in the punk scene
which was, "trust yourself,"
whatever talent you thought you had
and if uhh... you felt you could make
get out there and do it
and Shane did
there's one punk... the Sex Pistols
the rest of them are rubbish
I'm not interested
what's more I probably wouldn't
have been that interested in them
if Johnny Rotten hadn't been so
bloody obviously Irish you know
and made a big noise about it and
made such anti-English records... yeah?
no future
in England's dreamin'
punk was speed-fueled which was why
everybody was so bloody obnoxious you know
spitting in your face
and getting aggressive
and fighting and all the rest of it
but you know that was the scene
the youth scene
mods punks and so it was all speed
and that was... that would have
been the general drug speed and drink
God save the queen...
she ain't no human being...
she's made you a moron
potential h-bomb
he uhh... started producing a fanzine
the first I heard of his creative bent
and uhh... Shane came in with his fanzine
and started selling that
and then the next thing I knew
he was putting a band together
myself and my partner
in the shop at the time
decided we would try and manage the Nips
as they were then called
well actually they were called
the Nipple Erectors
but we had a problem in
that people didn't want
Nipple Erectors on posters
it was supposed to be sexist
which I could never understand
since everybody's got them
but umm... we had to shorten it
from the Nipple Erectors to the Nips
he's well-known as a very good lyricist
a poet even for the
Pogues stuff that he writes
but even the stuff that he
was writing for the Nips
was um... even if you had
taken it out of the pop context
and put an air to it
it still would have been...
it could have been a Pogues song you know?
things like Gabrielle you know?
let's go down to the old West End
you know? like we used to do
when you were my girlfriend...
take the 73 to the city...
you sitting there looking so pretty
the crap I wrote for the Nips
I could write in my sleep
you know it was pop you know
you know I mean... like
you know... I mean like
it was a...
it was a teenage anthem you know
I've never stopped writing adolescent crap
it's just some people can't tell
the real... you know... pop
from the real thing you know?
he always said he wanted to be a
pop star always you know and he
said he wasn't going to hang around
he was going to be a pop star
and when he first like... when
the Noisey Boyseys first began
which later became the Pogues
I remember we went down
to see the first gig
must have been just about the
first gig down in Steve Stanger's club
and there was us and one or two others
and umm... a bunch of squatties I think
who were just back from northern
Ireland who were all eating chips
and proceeded to pelt the
stage with chips throughout
and there was Shane up on the stage
sort of singing Paddy Works On The Railroad
and and Irish songs
it should have occurred to me
it was so fucking obvious
a fucking thing to do
to fucking play really good
Irish songs to a young audience
you know the Pogues could never
have been an Irish band indigenously
it could never have happened in Ireland
I'm... I'm absolutely certain of that
it would never have happened from
within the island
and the Pogues needed to happen
from the Diaspora if you like
in Mary Robinson's uhh memorable phrase
it... it... it uhh needed to happen from...
it's like there's two Irelands
the people who live on the island
and there's people who went away
or who are second generation
and very often uhh... you know
that gives a different point of view
on the culture
on what it is to be Irish
he affected a lot of Irish
people in London at the time
for the better in a huge way
just by making it possible
to kind of claim back
umm some sense of pride in being Irish
because like putting it into context
you had the Balcombe street seige
you had bombs going off
right left and center
it was... there was a lot of
racism in London at the time
and a lot of anti-Irish talk
uhh every time there was another bomb
so for him to turn around and
kind of celebrate his Irish culture
was a... was a... was a very strange thing
and... and to give voice to
his experience of it was...
like in the lyrics and when he began
writing the songs and that was what was
such a huge revelation with the Pogues
all I did was take extremely
old-fashioned Irish music
proper Irish music
paeans or old-fashioned... you know
in terms of people like
Horslips and Clancy
and Diarmaid yeah... right
and like uhh you know
like you know... you know the music you know
ceilidh music and you know jigs reels
like lyrics about
drinking fucking fighting you know
like uhh you know romantic lyrics about
love and rebellion everything else yeah?
I am going I am going where the
streams of whiskey are flowing
it's not exactly an Erin moor
in the county Galway
one summer's evening
in the month of May
I met a damsel
both fair and handsome
she nearly took my breath away
is it now?
the day the record arrived
in uhhh... you know
it didn't leave the turntable for days
it was the most exciting thing that
had aired in a long long time
you must remember this is the early 80's
where the charts were full of
extremely bland and mechanical music
ahh... it looked like you know... after the
after the sort of the first
uhh... blossom of the punk movement
uhhh... it seemed to all go
horribly wrong very quickly
uhh... the music went backward
retreated back into its
sort of soporific state
so it's almost hard
really now in retrospect to say just
how exciting that was to hear an album
played by human beings with
real instrument and so on
it was revolutionary for its time
the stuff we play like is... is uhh
well it's more fucked up basically
you know because like... because like
you are more fucked up
if you live in London than
if you live in uhh...
you're not more fucked up than if you
live in Belfast or
somewhere like that obviously
but you're more fucked up than uhh...
if you live in a nice little town
in Tipperary or somewhere like that
Elvis Costello had produced
my record Captains and Kings
so I brought Elvis to see the Pogues
which were obviously the
happening band in London at the time
and I realize in retrospect actually
that what happened that night is
that Elvis fell in love twice over
once with the Pogues and then
with the Pogue's bass player
all that happened I think
instantaneously I realize now and
and he went on to produce
Rum Sodomy and the Lash
is it hard to produce uhh...
this kind of sound?
no no uhhh... people
got the uhh... have a
misapprehension that the band can't play
the band can play really well
the sound's changed because Costello
came in and produced it right?
and the way he produces is like
really kind of clinical
and kind of like you know?
the best way to record us is
live you know in the studio
with as few takes as possible on the vocal
but Costello believed in hundreds of takes
making me do the vocal hundreds of times
and then kind of splitting
it up from bits of all that
to make up a Frankenstein monster
yes a word out here and
a word out there. . . you know?
he'd drop in between uhh... you know?
despite the fiddles uhh. . . like
Frankenstein productions like you know?
the raw energy comes through
you know what I mean?
it's a great album because
it's great fucking music
it's a great band you know what I mean?
it's great music you know what I mean?
and it wasn't all written
by me you know what I mean?
i mean half was written by me... yeah?
and like... you know... it's a great band
in the peak of their... of their... of their
of their uhh... of their uhh...
they're in their peak
you know what I mean? you know?
when I'm at home... you know?
I... uhh... watch telly... listen to music
read books... and play the guitar... yeah?
and... uhh... every now
and then I get an idea
you find a riff that
sounds good... like... yeah
and then a melody suggest itself
but really... it's just that
I don't know how it happens
it's like Mozart said...
it's music from heaven
or hell... depending on whether you
like it... you know?
either... uhh... why aren't there shares
why hasn't the church got...
oh yeah the church have got shares
but what are they trading under?
you know what I mean?
is it orange juice or uhh... light metals
err... uhh... uhh... is Bill Gates a
fucking front for uhh... for uhh... El Papa?
is Bill Gates the new Jesus Christ?
after Rum Sodomy and the Lash uhh...
the band obviously altered a little
in as much as I came
in later on in that album
and then Terry Woods came in
and then uhh Darrel Hunter
replaced Cait O'Reardon on bass
so the sound was changing
and developing and
and different... different elements
were coming into play
I thought he was an
incredible lyric writer
great singer
and the songs were really beautiful
and then the next album came out
If I Should Fall With Grace...
is that right?
umm... and I just thought some
of the lyric writing on
that was uhh... was unbelievable
umm... kind of head and shoulders above
what anyone else was doing
umm... it had uhh... a simplicity
to it that was just
and beauty about it was
just extraordinary I thought
the long gap between
Rum Sodomy and the Lash and
If I Should Fall From Grace With God
which was a lot to do with
uhh record company problems
which are far too boring to go into
but it delayed recording
a new album for awhile
but in retrospect that was the best thing
that could have happened
because we had... we'd use that time
to develop a kind of new sound
well a bigger version of the same sound
and to just build confidence
in what the band were doing
there was... uhh... energy in
in the way that the way that he wrote
uhh from my point of view
i was... i was writing very different
sorts of lyrics I think
and for a lot of different reasons
from... from as early on as I
can remember actually
umm I was trying to make an effort
in some way... to show that I could write
and that was the difference
between I think me and Shane
and that's what made
Shane such a great writer
was his complete effortlessness
umm... it just looked like it
just sort of dropped out of him
and uhh... and there wasn't
a bad line amongst it
it's just... just beautiful stuff
what? has Mickey gone home?
this is where Francis Bacon used to drink
he was Irish and queer
and a right wanker I think
hello there!
Pascal
C'mere you bastard
[speaking Greek?]
this is Michael this is the
uhh... proprietor and
and this is Pascal...
the beautiful proprietoress
hostess from... uhh... from Greece
what do you want?
I should never stop telling you
the drinks are incredibly
wonderful... sorrowful
- shut up you asshole
- uhh
like singing acting... like they invented
tragedy they invented comedy
and tonight's tragi-comedy
is just about to commence
when I was a sponge-diver
I dived 14 million feet into
the sea to pick up a sponge
and did you use it?
I sold it to an American
his music is very spontaneous
and it comes... it seems
to just flow through him
when he's writing music
it seems that he has music in his head
and it sort of comes through...
and I think that the state of mind
he's in when hes when he's writing
is quite detached from
what we would think of as
a normal day-to-day way of functioning
he's not logical... he doesn't umm
he doesn't try to write music
he allows music to be...
to come through him
I mean I think... I think Shane is a
kind of master at... uhh
the opening lines of songs... are
always you know uhh... unbelievably good
you know Christmas eve babe
in the drunk tank
every piece got completely erased
beginning to end by the media
every note okay? like I mean apart
from a few notes by Jim
I mean a little riff
by Jim you know... okay?
but I'm saying like the orchestral
arrangement was by me... yeah? you know?
Steve Lilywhite was talking about using us
uhh... a machine could do it
you know what I mean?
I said, "No way!"
it's gotta be the real thing yeah
we almost had a number one single with
Fairytale of New York... yeah
but the Pet Shop Boys had other ideas
with their Elvis Presley cover
uhh... but even they would
have to have conceded I think
that morally we were the
number one record that week
uhh... it's the greatest Christmas
song since White Christmas you know uhh
and Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas
those three... they're the alltime greats
I still think it's an extraordinary record
coming as it did out of nothing
and even though the first two
albums had primed people for kind of
what to expect with the Pogues
I don't think anyone for a second
expected the riches of
Fairytale of New York
I loved the boat... yeah?
you don't get treated like a piece of shit
like you do on an airplane
unless you're a fucking executive
you know? like... yeah?
I liked that boat quite a lot... yeah?
there or there or over there?
no... how about there or there?
double gin and tonic
lots of ice slice of lemon
glad to meet you
I'm so glad you made it
how you doing? how you doing man?
you got your hair... your beard cut off
aye... sort of... yeah
the impression I think a lot of people get
is that... you know...
it's Shane MacGowan... crazy guy
there were fifteen crazy guys
the crew as well
we fell around the world
I don't know how we got from A to B
we were all piss drunk
all of the time
I never envied uhh... Joey
Cashman's job as tour manager
I thought that was...
that must be...
what's the worst job you ever had?
I was the Pogues tour manager
yeah... great
there's no such thing as the good old days
oh no... that's not true... Joey no
that's not true
as tour manager I would be...
I would organize the
rooms and that at reception
and uhh guys who were particularly drunk
so I asked them to stay outside
so that the hotel people wouldn't see them
before we could at least get
our keys and get into the hotel
so... I was in the middle of doing that
and there were quite a few bands staying
there and I heard a bit of a commotion
I turned around and... uhh
Shane was being umm... helped in
by Big Charlie and somebody else
they had an arm each over their shoulders
and he had uhh... his leather
trousers were down around his knees
he had no underpants on
and they were dragging him along
his feet were just going like that
and uhh... I just said to
the receptionist you know
"What kind of a hotel is this?"
you know... what are these people
as if I had nothing to do with them
do you want to hear what it says?
Shane MacGowan and the Pogues
and the Pogues is in the same size
letters as my name for some reason... right?
you know Shane MacGowan's influence on
Irish music cannot be overestimated
I don't think it's true to say
that all of us were drinking too much
but certainly for some people in the band
alcohol had become a major problem
MacGowan's deceptively simple songs
I'd like to know what's
so bloody simple about them
try and play them... cunt
contain worldly words of life
and lifetimes of experience
and he compresses all manner
of human passion into his work
desperate DESPERATE to communicate
everything he has lived and found
down to the last ounce of
commitment and urgency
if you had issues with alcohol
there was no better... trust me
there was no better place in the world
to bury them and hide them
than in the Pogues you know?
because the whole culture
that built around the band
uhh... positively you know... demanded it
a couple of nice ones
when you're that age
that's what you want to do
you want to um...
you want to drink too much
and take too many drugs
and stay up all night
and behave badly
and of course you... know they
were just having a good time
I knew he drank alot
but it wasn't so much that he drank alot
but that he seemed to be doing it
more out of desperaton at that point
more as a way of avoiding people
than as a way of joining in
whereas when I first met him
he was a very sociable sort of person
and he would drink umm... with people
you know with me or with whoever
when it got really bad
I could see him like...
put down a bottle of gin
before he went on stage just to umm
just to make himself feel
able to get on stage I think
I love Them
I love the dance stuff
I love the dance stuff... Astral Weeks
- I like all the albums
- I love Them stuff
- I like all his music
- Astral Weeks
I think it was a pivotal moment
because they made that
move from being in control
to being a part of somebody else's agenda
and Shane certainly changed at that point
he seemed quite disillusioned and cynical
about the whole business of
of being on the road
about performing
it seemed to have taken
a huge toll on his psyche
he seemed to have no
space to just be himself
they started to act like rock stars
they started to think like rock stars
they were great musicians
I mean... like... so what?
you know what I mean? you know?
I mean... uhh... you know
but I mean... like... uhh...
that doesn't give you any... rights
you know what I mean? you know?
above any other human being
you know what I mean? you know?
there was a... there was... umm
and underlying sort of resentment
against Shane in the band
because all the media would
want to speak to Shane... all right?
umm... and... of course
it was alot more than that
let's just say one...
one particular subject
and they... they liked
to think about themselves
as a nine piece band
where everybody had an equal input
and equal importance
so... sometimes I felt that... umm
people were objecting to his opinions
not based upon his actual opinions
but simply because they just got fed up
with it being
Shane Shane Shane Shane
it was never my band
we were a democratic band... you know?
and then in the end
like I wasn't involved
in the democracy anymore
the system was to blame... yeah?
we thought we could beat the system
and we couldn't
we had set out to beat the system
they said... you know... we don't
really want you to go... you know?
I mean... we need you
I mean all this... you know?
you know... give us a
couple more years... I mean
you know... uhh... you know
you know... I didn't like...
because I don't want to fight or anything
you know... I mean
I was easy persuaded to
carry on... you know
things will get better... you know
but things got worse
somehow from the outside
there was this farcical idea
that the Pogues were allowing
Shane MacGowan to kill himself
that in fact we might
even have welcomed the idea
and nothing could be farther from the truth
we cared very deeply about Shane
and still do
ultimately we're his best friends
I mean... you know...
he might speak ill of us now
all these years later occasionally
but he doesn't really mean it
it was like a bunch of guys
who just cared about each very much
but like there
there always comes a point
where you can only help
somebody so much
I wanted to make an Irish
album for the Ulsterhouse (?) kids
so if you get out ???
and you listen... it's a piece of love
you'll find that all
my tracks are in the house beat (?)
the touring was getting to me
and the... uhh... constant
arguments and stuff... you know?
we were starting to sound
tired and... uhh... jaded
yes... you know... i mean it was
sounding like we should call it a day
you know
we should have... like... called
it a day at that stage... yeah
if we'd left it at that note
we would have got out a bit
graciously... you know
but making Hell's Ditch
was a ridiculous mistake
basically the problem
is... like... the singing...
the singing isn't as good as it could be
the playing isn't either actually
but the singing is definitely very...
my voice is deteriorating
you know I remember seeing
the uhh... seeing the Pogues
in some festival in France
the show was falling to... falling to bits
umm... Shane didn't know
what songs they were playing and it was
you know it was one of those kind of
those kind of classic uhh... moments
and the... the worse Shane became
the more the audience kind of adored him
and until the concert was
pretty much unlistenable
they were playing some horrendous kind
of Rolling Stones cover
or something like that
and... uhh... really
pandering to this audience
in this way and I found that
from a band that could be so great
quite kind of sickening to watch actually
and I find that element... I always found
I always found that element of the Pogues
kind of disappointing in a way
because they could be so great
you know but then again
at the sound check of that concert
Shane was in better form and came on
and just sang the song with
his hands in his pockets
singing this song at the sound check
and I've never heard anything so beautiful
it was just. . . you know. . .
it was just unbelievable
Hell's Ditch was my own sort of uhh
crash landing if you like
I knew at that point that I had
a serious problem with it and that
it was going to be a tough one to beat
because it's the equivalent of being in a
brewery and trying to stop drinking
being on the road with
the Pogues... you know
but that's not to say that there wasn't
personal responsibility involved
I was prepared to take
the personal responsibility
but at that point in my life
I found it very very difficult
it was just easier to succummb
to the... to the drink... you know
I was always saying, "We gotta
stop touring so much."
you know what I mean... you know?
but they wouldn't... they didn't
agree with me and so on... you know
so they obviously didn't think
they were paying a high price you know
if they think they paid a high price now
you know... I hate to say I told you so...
did we sack Shane MacGowan
there is the question
no... it's just never as simple as that
what actully happened was
it was becoming very obvious that the band
wanted to carry on playing at something
like the level we were playing
and Shane was getting more and more
disenchanted with that and wanted to
spend more time at home
and mainly the way he was telling us that
was by the inconsistency of his behaviour
you know Shane's not the sort of a person
who can tell you in a straight way
look I really don't...
I'm just not digging this
so he would have to go around the houses
and tell you in some complicated way
that you eventually get the message
and then he would make it look like
you're telling him this... you know?
so that it would be all you fault...
you're telling him he can't do this anymore
in fact he'd just gone to extreme lengths
to make you understand that that's the case
ahh... and Shane is magnificent at
twisting everything around to that purpose
so I think he probably
thinks we sacked him yes
but he knows in his heart that it's not true
they fired him... I was at the meeting
they fired him
I was venomously against it
it was in Japan after a particularly
bad couple of years as far as
some people were concerned
but the reason Shane
wasn't performing as well
and the reason he withdrew and
got as out of it as he did was because of
the situation that he found himself in
they were trying to phase
Irish music out altogether
you know what I mean?
which is insane
you know what I mean?
I said, "What do you mean?"
that's what we do... is Irish music
you know... that's what we do
that's what we do
like the Specials do ska and the
and the fucking Rolling Stones do R and B
you know what I mean?
what we do is Irish music you know
rural Irish music
you know emotional guts dance music
we got that... bypasses the end like
and hits you in the gut...
and hits you in the heart...
and hits you in the soul
oh. . . I am
I've been a babe magnet
for quite a while you know
I gave up trying to impress girls
you know what I mean
and they started getting
interested in me yeah
just think now...
is there a hot tub?
well I mean with ??? the tub's gone yeah?
there's a sauna and swimming pool yeah?
I told you I'm going to
put a jacousi in the barn yeah?
you cannot become a babe
magnet if you're no good
know what I mean?
because girls tell other girls
what you're like you know what I mean
and like you might be really dishy
which I'm not you know what I mean?
but that wasn't my attraction
you know what I mean? like you know
girls said to other girls yeah?
- do you want to come in the Merc Shane?
- what?
- do you want to come in the Merc?
- yeah
- right I'll go get it
-I'll get my car though
- come in a decent car
- come in the Merc right
- come and try a piece of the Merc
- yeah come on and have a shot of the Merc
- first decent fucking car we ever had
- absolutely i quite agree
i quite agree... i couldn't agree more
you mean the last decent car
I've been reading all this stuff about you
this very public row between
you and Sinead O'Connor
she said she was going to shop you
for heroin... isn't that so?
and she did
I think it's bloody obvious that she's
out only for publicity
and like... at this stage of the game like
she doesn't... she doesn't even view it like
you know what I mean like
she'll do anything for publicity
you know what I mean?
I do believe she did do it
because she genuinely felt that
our relationship was worth saving
and she saw that I love Shane
and that Shane loves me
and she could see that very clearly
even though I couldn't really
at that point... see it
I was like ready to give up
I thought right, well you know I
cut my losses and see if I can find
some more satisfactory relationship
it may well have helped because
I think it did force Shane to think
even if he didn't want to think...
about what was going on and what...
you know and what I was unhappy about
and what he was doing and stuff
she's friends with
friends of my missus Vickie
she seems to believe
that she whatever did
with the best intentions you know?
so I don't give a fuck or anything
she's like you know
well she's got no right to
it's my life you know
I'm a fucking adult you know
I'm not the one to take a moral
high-ground about drug-taking
umm... in any way
umm... and what... Shane
feels is right for him is right for him
umm... myself I... I guess uhh...
I don't know... two years ago
I had to make a... a choice really
whether I was going to continue to
write and be an artist or whether
I was going uhh... to be a junkie
and that was pretty much the
choice that was being made
a year had gone by when the piano
just sort of sat in the corner of the room
staring back at me blankly
I wasn't doing anything
I wasn't able to a put a line on... on paper
and for me it became necessary to stop
and for me since I've stopped
I've been able to write with
much more energy
much more dedication
and much more concentration
than ever before
what Shane does is completely up to him
and has every right to do whatever he wants
and believe whatever he wants
that sounds like a sheep innit?
people often ask what Shane would be like
if he didn't drink but umm... it's funny
I don't ever really wonder about it
I don't ever really think about that
it seems to be so much a part
of what he's like
it seems almost as though that's
his purpose in life
is to write about drinking
I'm not saying that he only
writes about drinking
but to write about the type of things
that he does write about
and he encompasses quite alot
when I was young I washed the cars
when I was older I drank in bars
I don't know if he could
do it in the same way
if he was a different kind of person
and he lived his life differently
I don't know whether Shane terms
himself an alcoholic or not
Phil Chevron certainly ended up saying
I am an alcoholic and getting out of it
Terry Woods ended up saying
I am an alcoholic and getting out of it
Spider ended up saying
I am an alcoholic and getting out of it
Shane exhibited all of the characteristics
of the other three but just kept on going
- Joey
- what?
don't tell me they haven't
stuffed the olives for you
there's no gin... there's martini
we've survived... we survived the Pogues
you know I have been... I could easily be
dead now if there hadn't come a point
where I realized that
that was my next option
to decide whether or not
that was going to happen you know
you wanna go onstage? let's go
let's go... let's go here
you don't have to spend very long
on the road to know that you know
like you... you.. you can't be worried
about things like your health
and fucking like... like... uhh...
your parents being worried or like
you know what I mean? or like uhh...
the papers telling lies about you
whatever... you know what I mean?
you've got to say shit to all of that
you know what I mean?
I was just... what do I want to do?
I wanted... I want... I wanna be a mu...
what I always wanted to do was be a
professional musician you know
thank God I've ended up being
a professional musician
if he was out playing and wasn't
called in... for the rosary
there'd be... a bit of a row with him
Shane... whoever you were like...
you know John Jim George... you know
you know uhh... Bridget whatever
you know Maggie... Ryan you know
uhh yeah... you know?
it's the rosary... it's the rosary
and it's over the bed or
ahhh... it's gone away
and he's coming up... he's coming up
and aww... he went out
ahhh... almost there
oh yeah... he's coming up
he's coming up... he's coming up
ahhh... it's gone away
- what's the panic?
- ??? it's on in fucking Limerick
you know what I mean?
she's... two hours ago it's fucking starting
she was supposed to be coming
??? here... and you're speaking like that
well it's the cinma vrit you know?
I mean that's what they call it
as the french say
that means realistic cinema