The Detectives (2015) s01e01 Episode Script
Manhunt
1 This programe contains scenes which some viewers may find upsetting.
You're investigating crimes now that carry a life sentence.
Murders are easy compared to this.
We live in an age defined by one type of crime.
'A man's been charged following a rape 'in Manchester city centre early' 'Police have begun a formal criminal investigation into the Jimmy Savile child abuse' 'Grooming, rape' These crimes carry the harshest sentences, yet have the lowest conviction rates.
Police! Police! I can't tell you you're going to believe every victim that's stood in front of you - believe everything that they say - but the important thing is that victim believes that you believe him.
Few detectives want to volunteer for the fight.
You're always thinking I've got to get this right.
You've just got to keep going, moving forward to the next case.
The word that I would use is relentless.
These are the few.
You might go into an interview thinking they've done it, and then come back out of the interview and you don't know what to think.
I think it's down there.
- After the ginnel? - Yeah.
- That's where she's walked up.
- Yeah.
From here, that's where she's gone, and he's dragged her off to the right-hand side.
When the phone rings it's that absolute fear.
You know, dread.
Likehead-to-the-table - "Another job's coming in.
" "How am I going to deal with this?" Because you've got to deal with it.
Nobody else is going to do it.
You want to know who that individual is as quickly as possible.
You want them arrested as quickly as possible.
And, forensically, we're going to have, you know, a short period of time to try and identify that person, and to capture that evidence that's on them.
- That's the scene.
- Yeah.
You've got the flats there that are directly overlooking the scene.
You've got flats here, or a house here.
He took a huge chance grabbing hold of a young girl, bearing in mind she could've screamed, kicked him wherever she wanted He didn't know how she was going to respond.
And drag her through that open area there, when there are so many windows overlooking it.
- Hiya.
Is it John? I'm Kim.
- Yeah.
Come in.
Erm The bit I saw him in, was the bit behind that 4x4 there.
Mooching between the bush and that other bush, there.
So So which side of the fence was he on, then? He was on the other side of the fence.
That's why I could only see him from the chest up.
I have no idea what he was wearing from that bit down.
And how long do you think you were watching him for? For the exact length of time it takes me to smoke a cigarette.
I'd have gone down, only I'd been up about two minutes and I was stood in my undies.
And I was just stood there having a cigarette, and I thought, "What's he up to?" And because he was acting so suspicious, - that's why I watched for that amount of time.
- Mm.
And, er, he just wasn't acting right, at all.
Mm.
He looked like he'd either done something, all was going to do something.
But I thought it was cars! I didn't dream it was anything like that, otherwise I mean, I could kick myself - - because I've got two little 'uns, that I didn't go down.
- Mm.
See, he was looking everywhere apart from up.
I don't think he realised anyone was looking from up here.
But he had his eyes everywhere.
Do you think you'd be able to recognise him again? - You'd watched them for quite a few minutes, hadn't you? - Yeah.
And I think you said you had a really good look at his face.
- I did.
- Right.
- I mean, we watched I watched Britain's Got Talent the other week.
- Did you see that little lad with the balls? - Yes.
- But he had a really big forehead, didn't he? - Yeah.
To me, he looked like that.
So, it's a distinguishing feature, isn't it? It's like a So, that's the only Because he reminded me of that little lad.
So that's the only reason I remember the forehead, to be honest with you.
You're just thinking about the job that you've got to do at the time.
Because there will be a senior investigating officer and they'll be directing the team on what we need to do.
So, all you're focused on is just getting that task done, and moving on to the next one.
And it's always on your mind - can I be the one that is going to identify this offender? Is this little task I've got to do going to be the thing that gets us our evidence? Jo and Kim belong to the Serious Sexual Offences unit based in Rochdale.
A team of detectives from the unit is now working with them on the case.
It's what we call a Cat A rape.
It's a manhunt.
It's quite exciting.
It's awful, but it lifts you.
You You want to work really hard to get that person in.
Christine has returned from interviewing the 13-year-old victim.
To get something out of a young girl that's had something traumatic like that done to her is quite hard to do.
At first she just gave, like, a brief account.
And then, you've really got to, like, go into each bit and get as much information out of her as we could.
She was on her way to school, walking down the path, and she remembers a man coming past her, and then this man grabbed her, and then said, "If you don't do what I say, I'm going to kill you.
" He then put a bandanna around her eyes and then committed a sexual act on her.
I think it was only a few minutes, because I think, at one point, he may've been disturbed, erm and he'she's moved on and left her there.
At first, she just said she was blindfolded.
And then when we found the scene, we found, like, a pair of knotted socks together, which were the colour that she described.
She described his clothing.
And for something that happened in such a short space of time, she gave us quite a lot of information.
Christine and the team are a new breed of detective .
.
specially trained only to investigate serious sexual crimes.
Their unit, the SSOU is Greater Manchester Police's first dedicated rape unit.
The people we recruited were really hungry people, as in, "I don't have to do this.
Tell me how to do it.
"Show me how to do it, and then I'll do it.
" This is where they start their detective journey.
The ones that have come through us as trainees, they've had a very different start to their careers as detectives, and they move on to do whatever they want to do.
But they will have a set of skills that you can't get anywhere else.
The ABC of being a detective is assume nothing, believe no-one, check everything.
But if you treat a rape victim like that, you've already gone horribly wrong.
And that's why it's a specialism.
'Police are investigating a sex attack 'on a 13-year-old schoolgirl that happened early this morning.
'They're appealing for anyone with any information to come forward.
' - Do you know where we're going? - Yes.
The number of rapes reported to GMP has almost doubled in the last two years.
That rise has been matched by an explosion in allegations of historic abuse.
What I've done, I've put them down chronologically, as the offences were found.
One of those cases is being investigated by two of GMP's most experienced detectives, Rod and Carol.
So, he was arrested 2012.
- Yeah.
- Five victims.
Yeah.
It involves allegations against a friend of Jimmy Savile Manchester DJ, Ray Teret.
This investigation first came about because of Operation Yewtree.
Two ladies made contact with that operation to say that they'd been abused by Teret, but that Savile was involved in some capacity.
As a result of what they had said, and looking for corroboration, other ladies came to light, as well.
And it resulted in Ray Teret being arrested and interviewed.
'OK, so, tape's running now, Ray.
' The allegations are concerning .
.
to the police about the years Those areas of time, OK? 'This person who is making this complaint, says - It wasn't a It was a disco shop.
A disco hire shop.
A disco hire shop.
.
.
as a cleaner / Saturday girl / bits and pieces Oh, OK.
- Ten times? - Yeah.
Excuse me for having my mouth wide open.
No.
Who said that? This is this girl who's made a A woman who's come forward.
Not as far as I know.
OK.
So, around this time have you ever had any sex with an underaged person? After the interview, Ray Teret was released on bail.
A team of 15 detectives joins the investigation now known as Operation Canute.
If there's something within the investigation that is pertinent on these photographs then we need to outline it.
If it's somewhere you recognise, but is not pertinent in any way to the investigation, it seems irrelevant.
This type of historic investigation is new territory for Rod.
He's spent the last 20 years working in gun crime.
It's a matter of trying to corroborate, as much as you can, what the girls who have come forward are saying.
Whatever the crime is, whether it be rape, or whether it be a murder - a crime of a serious nature - if it's happened now you do have a crime scene that can harvest a lot of evidence.
But when you're investigating an offence that occurred ten, 20, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, then all that has gone.
I mean the building might not even be there.
It's detective work that you actually have to get out on the ground and do.
I once believed All fellas were nice But, girl, listen to me And take my advice 'I think it's about time you had a smile.
'Mind you, we do smile a bit on this programme.
'We do, really.
The Ray Teret show just keeps on boogying along.
'Oh, I thought I should tell you, by the way, 'if you missed one of the shows, it's OK, 'all the radio programmes that I've ever done are on my site, 'and this one is number 19.
'Number 17 was about Jimmy Savile.
' We've driven down to Sussex, to Worthing in Sussex.
Erm There's a witness that's approached the enquiry whose father was a police officer during the '80s, '70s and '80s, erm Having spoken to him, it transpires that he worked for Teret for a short time as a DJ.
I don't know how much, or what, he can tell us is going to be evidential, but he suggests his motivation is he's doing this for his dad.
So what did he know about Teret? He knew that Jimmy Savile had been investigated, at least once or twice, and, in the course of that, they investigated Teret, as well.
Right.
Do you know when and for what? Erm Initially, for hanging around school gates.
- Teret.
- Right.
Eventually, Ray Teret came up with the cunning plan of having a junior disco.
Do you know what the age limit was that disco? Under 16s, I think it was.
He timed it so that mothers could go to bingo at the front Right.
.
.
and the kids could go to the disco at the back.
- Something along those lines.
- Right.
Right.
And what was the make-up, you know, in relation to how many girls, how many men? Mostly young girls.
How young? Well, younger than me, and I was about 19, or 20, or 21.
Sothey were .
.
14, 15-year-olds, definitely.
Right.
Did you ever see or witness Teret doing anything, or? Not personally, no.
He was He wasa bit sly.
And the one time I knew Savile was there, it was in the summer, the window was open.
I was emptying the van and I heard Savile say, "Who's that?" AndI assume Ray Teret said, "Oh, he's Pete.
One of the roadies.
" And Savile said, "Get rid of him.
" You mentioned something about names being written on the wall.
Yeah, there was three charts.
Three charts? Yeah.
That was all the young girls.
Well, girls' names.
Erm Initials for schools, phone number, and various stars next to their names.
- Stars.
- Yeah.
I.
e.
, five-star, four-star, whatever.
Erm and what time was best to call them.
So I'm assuming that that was when the parents weren't about, or OK.
OK.
Operation Canute begun when a number of women made allegations against Teret.
One of the first to come forward was Cathy.
Just try and give me as much detail as you can, why you're here today.
I found myself getting churned up because whenever you see Savile on the television or the radio - the mannerisms and stuff - it reminds me of Teret.
A lot of it.
Erm And, you know, I went round to Teret's shop, erm, when he got this music shop - it was just around the corner - and, er, I was about 12.
And I used to I had a Saturday job there.
I thought Teret was my friend.
I kind of trusted him as a friend.
I'm an alligator I'm a mama-papa coming for you I'm a space invader I'll be a rock and rollin' bitch for you Keep your mouth shut You're squawkin' like a pink monkey bird ' And I'm busting up my brains for the words' What were you like as a young girl? I used to love music.
Music was my passion.
If I was feeling in a certain mood, I would put very rebellious music on.
David Bowie or something, and really sing it with a passion.
So, a tomboy.
Most definitely a tomboy.
My mum tried to do my hair once for me and was very disappointed that I went straight out to the rugby pitch and got all mucked up again.
I used to spend a lot of my time upside down.
I used to love gymnastics.
So I was constantly I think my mum used despair because I would be hanging over the banisters just by my fingers, quite often.
And I'd be there for hours, singing.
And, so, can you remember the first time you heard of Ray Teret? I didn't hear of him, I kind of went into the record shop.
The curious This new shop had opened and I went in there, and, you know, that was my introduction to him.
He was very welcoming to us.
You know, we'd We'd pulled out all this music we wanted to, then we got turfed out, told what to go.
Then he said, "Come on your own next time.
" I can't remember what the deal was - some records, or something - if I brought a friend round.
I don't know.
Some demo Bloody cheap, crappy demo records.
And I took my friend to see this man.
He had me doing sex while she was there, like, you know, this is what you do.
Then, when he'd finished, we just went home.
I just felt so embarrassed.
We will do everything we can to find evidence to corroborate what she says, but, at the moment, it's one word against another.
So we very much need to look to increase the investigation, to try to get corroborative evidence.
Now, she talks about being encouraged to bring her other school friends.
And she is able to give us the names of those other schoolchildren.
These people were absolutely corroborate what Cathy is saying, and if we find some of these people we may, in fact, uncover other victims.
The whole neighbourhood had suspicions of what was going on.
He was so blatant.
People in the shop saw it going on.
If anyone would have opened their eyes, it would've been spotted.
Would you be able to draw, like, a plan drawing of his flat? - To his music shop.
- I'd try my best.
With where the different bits of furniture and things were.
Yeah.
Yeah.
- Yeah? - Yeah.
OK, you come up the stairs, right, into the hall way.
In the hallway it had, all along in the walls in the hallway, it had all the phone numbers, erm, pictures, all sorts It was just like graffitied walls.
Working with sex offenders, it's awkward.
It's talking about sex, it's talking about violence, erm and some police officers aren't comfortable with it.
Some are great dealing with a robbery on a bank, or of a bookmakers, and they'll jump at the opportunity to investigate something like that.
But, for rape not everybody feels comfortable having to go and deal with someone and ask them intimate details about the incident.
And not only that, but intimate details about their past, as well.
- 'Police have released a description of a man 'they wish to question in connection with the rape of a 13-year-old schoolgirl.
'He is described as 5ft 8in in height, medium build, 'and wearing a pale blue vest top and camouflage shorts.
' Did you You did see his face, didn't you? Yeah.
And you mentioned in your statement that you think you'd remember him if you saw him again.
Do you Dressed the same.
Lovely.
The team investigating the case of the 13-year-old who was raped has uncovered a new lead.
There's a lot of media attention with this one.
It's a 13-year-old girl who was walking to school, and we've come up with a chap who's in an obvious agitated state saying, "The lad you're looking for is my best mate.
" "He, er ".
.
was with me up until five o'clock in the morning, "the morning of the job.
"He was wearing a blue vest and three-quarter khaki shorts.
" "And he phoned me at six minutes past eight saying, 'If anybody asks, I was with you till nine o'clock.
'" Less than an hour later, a suspect is brought into custody.
His name is Paul Fenner.
Have you seen the offender? I'll show you a picture of this guy that he's described.
He's described our offender as looking like him, with the forehead.
It's spot on, yeah.
It's a really, really good likeness.
Yeah.
Transfer that.
Yeah.
If somebody's in custody, what I'll ask my staff to do is, get a first account, and when I say "first account interview", it's literally, switch that tape on and ask them a big, open question and let them tell you what's happened.
There is that temptation, an urge to go in and say, "Look, "you know, this is what we've got", and not waste any time.
But we let them give their version of events first and let them say what they need to say, and then we'll switch that tape off and come away, and then we'll carry on the investigation based on that.
Jo brings in detectives Christine and Steve to interview the suspect.
I really do love interviewing.
It's the best part of my job.
Steve was a trainee, but he asked, could he go lead, which is good.
You know, he wanted to take the interview even though it was a big interview.
Even though I really wanted to do the interview! People don't realise just how much detail we go into when we're conducting the investigation.
We'll find out whether you're telling the truth or not.
I've actually had a lad pull his legs up to his chest and turn around in the chair, so that he had the back of the chair facing me as some form of protection against what I was saying to him because he knew that he'd been caught out in so many lies.
If you come to the police .
.
you tell lies .
.
you're not going anywhere.
OK.
OK, Paul.
I'd got And just sitting TV and just bored .
.
chat to him a bit cos we both work long hours.
Then, as I was driving back, I'd seen a lad who I'd met a few times at a few friends' houses.
- What's his name again? - I just know him as 'Moz'.
Which, at the moment in time, the plumbing shop was actually overdue with money and I'd had no working this week, so I said, "Yeah", and then got the money until he was leaving the van back.
I've got the rape of a 13-year-old, the 533 that come in on the 18th.
Anne was one of the two CSIs that went to the scene and recovered It was a blindfold.
It was actually a pair of socks tied together, but it was used as a blindfold on the victim.
We need a photograph of those socks to put to the suspect in interview this morning.
The scene is bushes and waste ground where he's dragged his victim.
Paul Fenner's first interview is over.
He's started off with his account.
He basically says that he drives into Leigh town centre, where he bumps into a male who he knows vaguely as Moz.
He describes Moz, and Moz is pretty much the same description as himself.
When he's asked to go into detail about Moz, he says, "I just know him vaguely.
I don't know where he lives.
" But Moz asks him if he'll lend him his van for four hours.
What's also bizarre is, when he's asked about his clothing, he says that he is wearing a light blue vest-type top.
For some reason, he decides that he's chilly, so he takes the vest top off and leaves that in the van.
He says, when he get the van back, he says the blue vest top is missing.
Victim describes him as wearing this light blue top at the time of the attack.
I'd like to say I can switch off, and you can go on holiday and switch off, but we don't.
We don't switch off.
It does form part of who you are.
You know, cops will tell you they turn it off when they go home.
We don't.
We don't.
- So, does that mean you're instinctively nosey, - or just have an awareness? - No, I'm nosey.
I'm nosey.
You know, I might phrase it that I'm more aware, but I'm nosey.
I think that's And that's probably what makes me a good police officer, is that I am nosey.
The Operation Canute team is following up leads from Cathy, one of the first women to make abuse allegations against DJ Ray Teret.
They've tracked down one of Cathy's friends from the '70s.
Carol is going to interview her with another detective.
Part of the training that we do, you know, the trainers will say to you, "OK, everybody have a private moment" ".
.
and think about the most embarrassing sexual moment "you've ever had.
" So, they give you a few minutes to think about it, and then they'll say to you, "OK, what I want you to do is to tell "the person to your right all the details.
" Now, in the training environment, of course everybody starts laughing and thinking, "Oh, well, I'm not going to do that!" But it just gives you that moment, that sharp intake of breath about, it's one thing saying, "Think about it", it's another thing to say, "Tell the person next to you.
" But it's just to give you a little bit of a flavour of what we're asking our victims to do.
Turn left, then keep right.
Recalculating.
All she has actually told me is that her and Cathy were best friends at school, they were in the same class and she's confirmed Cathy's address and said they would go around from.
Cathy's to a record shop round the corner that belonged to Ray Teret.
- Right.
Do you want that filling up? - No.
The witness doesn't know that Cathy is part of the investigation, and hasn't spoken to her for 40 years.
OK.
I'd just like for you to confirm you received a letter from the Greater Manchester Police, and within that letter, I explained I was part of an inquiry that was investigating a man by the name of Ray Teret.
Receiving that letter, I nearly passed out, actually, I couldn't believe it.
First of all, how you'd found me and my maiden name and everything.
The first thing I did was phone you.
You will probably be doing most of the talking because I'll ask you questions and ask you to explain things for me, but I will ask you questions to confirm details and to get a bit more detail about what you're saying.
My friend, um .
.
lived on the corner from where his record shop was and his flat above, and that was how I first met him.
I didn't know whether Oh, God! I didn't know anything was wrong, I don't.
I never, like, told anybody or anything like that.
Just I know this is difficult, but try to tell me if you can.
We heard young girls were going there as well, I think from the school up the road.
You'll see in her the turmoil of telling a story about when she was 13 or 14 .
.
trying to justify it in her head now as a 50-year-old woman.
Those conflicts You can see them in her face.
He used to Didn't want me going in the record shop, I just used to knock on the door at the side and go up to the flat.
He just .
.
always something sexual happened there.
Were you aware of anything else in relation to anybody else? Yeah, he used to go out with Cathy as well.
Did you and Cathy ever talk about what happened? We must have done at the time, but I don't remember what we said to each other or anything like that.
Oh, God.
You're doing well, I know it's really difficult.
I tried to bury it all, you know.
- OK.
- I'm remembering all I can.
We do use the term "building blocks" in an investigation, and the starting block is the first complainant.
The next building block will come from when you get another victim.
When we find them, they have no idea how we have got to them.
So we never revealed we're here because.
X, Y and Z have mentioned you.
So from there, we got a very uncontaminated corroboration that this girl says, "I was groomed at the same time as this girl was.
" And each of them did not know that we'd found the other girl.
I know this is difficult, Ann.
My name is Rod Carter, I'm a detective from Greater Manchester.
- Have you got a couple of minutes? - Yeah, come in.
No.
That one was a miss.
I can't tell you when it was and I can't tell you what time it was or anything like that, but I'm almost certain in my own mind, I've seen girls, young schoolgirls, from the grammar school, in his car.
Because they used to hang around that bloody record shop.
You know what I mean? They were like flies around shit.
'I didn't bother going in the record shop, 'just use the knock on the door at the side and go up to the flat.
' Would you be able to draw a plan drawing of his flat? I'll try my best.
You mentioned something about names being written on the wall.
And that was all young girls' names.
OK, you've come up the stairs into the hallway.
In the hallway, it had all along in the walls in the hallway, it had all the phone numbers, pictures, all sorts, it was just like graffitied walls.
If I said "rapist" to somebody, they would never think a rapist as being, you know, Mrs Smith's husband, that would never be the perception.
Before I joined the police, I always had a stereotype that sex offenders, paedophiles, were sort of, you know, they all looked a certain way and they looked creepy.
But when you're actually carrying out the job and you're in that world, there's such a broad variety.
When a suspect comes in, sometimes we'll gather round the computer, you know, our intelligence system, and when they come into custody they get a photograph taken and we'll load up the photograph all stand around the computer and go, "This is him.
" It'll come up and be like, "Oh, he's a weedy little thing, isn't he?" You sort of have an idea what they're going to be like and sometimes you're like, I can't believe that they've done this.
So it's, yeah, it can be quite a shock sometimes.
Paul Fenner, a suspect in the rape of the 13-year-old, has been in custody for three days.
What have they said to you? Mum, it wasn't me.
Mum, honestly, I can't discuss it, but it wasn't me.
You know I'm not Just look after All right? All right, see Love you.
Bye.
Jo has tracked down Paul Fenner's alibi, Moz, the man HE claims the borrowed his van.
So that takes us now to Joe's trip out to Wigan and trying to establish who Moz is because we did some workor Gary did some work We went to the last address we've got for him.
A guy answered the door and confirmed that he'd gone on holiday a week ago on Monday and he was due back next week.
He'd gone away with his girlfriend and parents abroad, so he was out of the country.
Is Fenner confirms the man they found is his alibi, the detectives will have proof that he is lying.
A bit quiet.
.
.
if not skinnier.
Right, we left off there.
It does look like hima bit longer hair.
Got a picture of Moz during the suspect interview.
Handed it to the suspect and said, "Is this the Moz "you actually handed the keys over to, and used your van?" And he said yes.
All I can imagine is, once he's seen that, he's thought, "I'll give them a yes because that will just "throw them off the path and they'll go and speak to him "and try and trace him and he's hard to trace, all that type of thing.
" They are the socks that were used to blindfold the victim.
They're quite distinctive.
They come from a pack of four which Asda sell.
There's an Asda store which is 24-hour shop over in Leigh.
We've actually got footage of him coming into the store just after four o'clock in the morning.
He was questioned about the socks, clearly, on interview, and he was very vague about when he purchased them.
I think, when he was initially asked, he gives some months before or around Christmas time.
His story then changed to a lot more recently.
Up to the weekend before the offence taking place.
What he didn't say was that he'd bought them that morning.
So, in his hand there he's got a pack of four socks.
- And that's at what time? 4.
03 in the morning? - 4.
03, yes.
And what time was the girl attacked? Between 7.
30am and 8am, wasn't it? We've ripped your alibi to shreds, we've ripped everything you've said to shreds Armed with the evidence, Steve and Christine enter the final stage of the interview.
The challenge phase.
That is when you hit all your inconsistencies.
Your lies.
That's when we will actually delve into that and it's far more impact to do that at the end of the interview process.
If somebody's telling you a lie, then you will go into as much detail as you possibly can.
It's like they've just pulled out a shovel and they're digging a bigger hole for themselves.
Because they are then telling you a lie in huge detail.
It's like gold.
You keep on telling me lies, keep on telling me lies.
And you challenge them.
How do you account for the fact How do you account for the fact How do you account for the fact that the 13-year-old rape victim Right, Paul, listen to what the officer is going to say to you.
OK, Paul, you are charged with the following offences.
You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention now something which you later rely on in court.
Anything you do say may be given in evidence.
On the 18th June 2013 at Wigan in the County of Greater Manchester you committed an offence, namely forcing a 13-year-old schoolgirl to remove her clothing with the intention of committing a relevant sexual offence contrary to section 62 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.
Do you wish to make any reply to that charge, Paul? On the 18th June 2013 Do you want me to contact your parents and see in there's anything they can bring you? Let me speak to your parents and see if they're all right with it.
I was in court when the sentence was read out and his family were there and, you know, his family were really upset.
His mum was there, his dad was there, his brothers were there, they were all crying.
You know, the effect that one incident, you know, one incident what he actually decided to do, the effect of that was massive in terms of the victim's family and also the offender's family.
The first time I met the victim, it was quite strange because it was as though nothing had happened to her.
Mum and Dad found it quite hard that there was no tears, there was no There was nothing, she just said, "I'm going back to school.
" But weeks down the line, it started to come out, that there was anger there and then there was tears.
It's quite hard because .
.
it destroys people.
I don't think it ever goes away.
Didn't we have ourselves some kind of a summer? Didn't we have ourselves some kind of a time? We are just having fun on the Ray Teret Show.
'Right, what's your plan for the week? Are you going to work? 'OK, that's normal.
'Have you made any plans for your future?' This morning, we are travelling to a flat that used to be occupied by Ray Teret.
A lot of our victims are suggesting there may graffiti on the walls of the property.
Teret's previously been interviewed before I came onto this enquiry.
His defence at the moment seems to be that he doesn't know any of these girls or any of these victims that have come forward.
The property we're at now used to be a record shop in the mid '70s.
And as you see, schoolchildren and schoolgirls walking past the property.
I mean, it's now 20 past eight in the morning and.
on their way to school.
And there is a girls' school just a few hundred yards up the road.
And from what the victims have said, Teret used to encourage the girls to come into his shop.
From the door, video initially just video the flat itself as we go up.
And I just want the layout of the flat, really.
Our crime scene photographer is just getting the layout of the flat.
Even if there's nothing behind that wallpaper, they've described the flat, where the various offences took place.
This is On either this side or this side is where we think it's going to be.
Obviously there's one sheet of paper there.
And this one goes to the top there, - so it'll just be these two we're taking off.
- Right.
"If you need "If you need me, call me.
"All my love, Denise.
" Do you want to wait for the still or do you want me to carry on? No, carry on.
There's a lot of names here, mate, we don't know.
There's at least 30 names on here.
- 'You're joking.
' - No, I'm not.
- Does that say Ray? - Yeah.
There's even a picture, a hand-drawn picture that's got fuzzy hair, of a bloke with fuzzy hair, with "Ray" pointing down to him.
And "You're good looking.
" 'Greater Manchester Police have arrested Jimmy Savile's 'former flatmate and chauffeur over fresh allegations 'of historic sex abuse against children.
'More victims have come forward.
' I absolutely want, in the challenge phase, pause before, because he's now thinking, "What's he going to ask me?" Knowing you are building up and building up and building up, until we get to these last two, where we've got independent evidence that he is having sex with young children.
You're investigating crimes now that carry a life sentence.
Murders are easy compared to this.
We live in an age defined by one type of crime.
'A man's been charged following a rape 'in Manchester city centre early' 'Police have begun a formal criminal investigation into the Jimmy Savile child abuse' 'Grooming, rape' These crimes carry the harshest sentences, yet have the lowest conviction rates.
Police! Police! I can't tell you you're going to believe every victim that's stood in front of you - believe everything that they say - but the important thing is that victim believes that you believe him.
Few detectives want to volunteer for the fight.
You're always thinking I've got to get this right.
You've just got to keep going, moving forward to the next case.
The word that I would use is relentless.
These are the few.
You might go into an interview thinking they've done it, and then come back out of the interview and you don't know what to think.
I think it's down there.
- After the ginnel? - Yeah.
- That's where she's walked up.
- Yeah.
From here, that's where she's gone, and he's dragged her off to the right-hand side.
When the phone rings it's that absolute fear.
You know, dread.
Likehead-to-the-table - "Another job's coming in.
" "How am I going to deal with this?" Because you've got to deal with it.
Nobody else is going to do it.
You want to know who that individual is as quickly as possible.
You want them arrested as quickly as possible.
And, forensically, we're going to have, you know, a short period of time to try and identify that person, and to capture that evidence that's on them.
- That's the scene.
- Yeah.
You've got the flats there that are directly overlooking the scene.
You've got flats here, or a house here.
He took a huge chance grabbing hold of a young girl, bearing in mind she could've screamed, kicked him wherever she wanted He didn't know how she was going to respond.
And drag her through that open area there, when there are so many windows overlooking it.
- Hiya.
Is it John? I'm Kim.
- Yeah.
Come in.
Erm The bit I saw him in, was the bit behind that 4x4 there.
Mooching between the bush and that other bush, there.
So So which side of the fence was he on, then? He was on the other side of the fence.
That's why I could only see him from the chest up.
I have no idea what he was wearing from that bit down.
And how long do you think you were watching him for? For the exact length of time it takes me to smoke a cigarette.
I'd have gone down, only I'd been up about two minutes and I was stood in my undies.
And I was just stood there having a cigarette, and I thought, "What's he up to?" And because he was acting so suspicious, - that's why I watched for that amount of time.
- Mm.
And, er, he just wasn't acting right, at all.
Mm.
He looked like he'd either done something, all was going to do something.
But I thought it was cars! I didn't dream it was anything like that, otherwise I mean, I could kick myself - - because I've got two little 'uns, that I didn't go down.
- Mm.
See, he was looking everywhere apart from up.
I don't think he realised anyone was looking from up here.
But he had his eyes everywhere.
Do you think you'd be able to recognise him again? - You'd watched them for quite a few minutes, hadn't you? - Yeah.
And I think you said you had a really good look at his face.
- I did.
- Right.
- I mean, we watched I watched Britain's Got Talent the other week.
- Did you see that little lad with the balls? - Yes.
- But he had a really big forehead, didn't he? - Yeah.
To me, he looked like that.
So, it's a distinguishing feature, isn't it? It's like a So, that's the only Because he reminded me of that little lad.
So that's the only reason I remember the forehead, to be honest with you.
You're just thinking about the job that you've got to do at the time.
Because there will be a senior investigating officer and they'll be directing the team on what we need to do.
So, all you're focused on is just getting that task done, and moving on to the next one.
And it's always on your mind - can I be the one that is going to identify this offender? Is this little task I've got to do going to be the thing that gets us our evidence? Jo and Kim belong to the Serious Sexual Offences unit based in Rochdale.
A team of detectives from the unit is now working with them on the case.
It's what we call a Cat A rape.
It's a manhunt.
It's quite exciting.
It's awful, but it lifts you.
You You want to work really hard to get that person in.
Christine has returned from interviewing the 13-year-old victim.
To get something out of a young girl that's had something traumatic like that done to her is quite hard to do.
At first she just gave, like, a brief account.
And then, you've really got to, like, go into each bit and get as much information out of her as we could.
She was on her way to school, walking down the path, and she remembers a man coming past her, and then this man grabbed her, and then said, "If you don't do what I say, I'm going to kill you.
" He then put a bandanna around her eyes and then committed a sexual act on her.
I think it was only a few minutes, because I think, at one point, he may've been disturbed, erm and he'she's moved on and left her there.
At first, she just said she was blindfolded.
And then when we found the scene, we found, like, a pair of knotted socks together, which were the colour that she described.
She described his clothing.
And for something that happened in such a short space of time, she gave us quite a lot of information.
Christine and the team are a new breed of detective .
.
specially trained only to investigate serious sexual crimes.
Their unit, the SSOU is Greater Manchester Police's first dedicated rape unit.
The people we recruited were really hungry people, as in, "I don't have to do this.
Tell me how to do it.
"Show me how to do it, and then I'll do it.
" This is where they start their detective journey.
The ones that have come through us as trainees, they've had a very different start to their careers as detectives, and they move on to do whatever they want to do.
But they will have a set of skills that you can't get anywhere else.
The ABC of being a detective is assume nothing, believe no-one, check everything.
But if you treat a rape victim like that, you've already gone horribly wrong.
And that's why it's a specialism.
'Police are investigating a sex attack 'on a 13-year-old schoolgirl that happened early this morning.
'They're appealing for anyone with any information to come forward.
' - Do you know where we're going? - Yes.
The number of rapes reported to GMP has almost doubled in the last two years.
That rise has been matched by an explosion in allegations of historic abuse.
What I've done, I've put them down chronologically, as the offences were found.
One of those cases is being investigated by two of GMP's most experienced detectives, Rod and Carol.
So, he was arrested 2012.
- Yeah.
- Five victims.
Yeah.
It involves allegations against a friend of Jimmy Savile Manchester DJ, Ray Teret.
This investigation first came about because of Operation Yewtree.
Two ladies made contact with that operation to say that they'd been abused by Teret, but that Savile was involved in some capacity.
As a result of what they had said, and looking for corroboration, other ladies came to light, as well.
And it resulted in Ray Teret being arrested and interviewed.
'OK, so, tape's running now, Ray.
' The allegations are concerning .
.
to the police about the years Those areas of time, OK? 'This person who is making this complaint, says - It wasn't a It was a disco shop.
A disco hire shop.
A disco hire shop.
.
.
as a cleaner / Saturday girl / bits and pieces Oh, OK.
- Ten times? - Yeah.
Excuse me for having my mouth wide open.
No.
Who said that? This is this girl who's made a A woman who's come forward.
Not as far as I know.
OK.
So, around this time have you ever had any sex with an underaged person? After the interview, Ray Teret was released on bail.
A team of 15 detectives joins the investigation now known as Operation Canute.
If there's something within the investigation that is pertinent on these photographs then we need to outline it.
If it's somewhere you recognise, but is not pertinent in any way to the investigation, it seems irrelevant.
This type of historic investigation is new territory for Rod.
He's spent the last 20 years working in gun crime.
It's a matter of trying to corroborate, as much as you can, what the girls who have come forward are saying.
Whatever the crime is, whether it be rape, or whether it be a murder - a crime of a serious nature - if it's happened now you do have a crime scene that can harvest a lot of evidence.
But when you're investigating an offence that occurred ten, 20, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, then all that has gone.
I mean the building might not even be there.
It's detective work that you actually have to get out on the ground and do.
I once believed All fellas were nice But, girl, listen to me And take my advice 'I think it's about time you had a smile.
'Mind you, we do smile a bit on this programme.
'We do, really.
The Ray Teret show just keeps on boogying along.
'Oh, I thought I should tell you, by the way, 'if you missed one of the shows, it's OK, 'all the radio programmes that I've ever done are on my site, 'and this one is number 19.
'Number 17 was about Jimmy Savile.
' We've driven down to Sussex, to Worthing in Sussex.
Erm There's a witness that's approached the enquiry whose father was a police officer during the '80s, '70s and '80s, erm Having spoken to him, it transpires that he worked for Teret for a short time as a DJ.
I don't know how much, or what, he can tell us is going to be evidential, but he suggests his motivation is he's doing this for his dad.
So what did he know about Teret? He knew that Jimmy Savile had been investigated, at least once or twice, and, in the course of that, they investigated Teret, as well.
Right.
Do you know when and for what? Erm Initially, for hanging around school gates.
- Teret.
- Right.
Eventually, Ray Teret came up with the cunning plan of having a junior disco.
Do you know what the age limit was that disco? Under 16s, I think it was.
He timed it so that mothers could go to bingo at the front Right.
.
.
and the kids could go to the disco at the back.
- Something along those lines.
- Right.
Right.
And what was the make-up, you know, in relation to how many girls, how many men? Mostly young girls.
How young? Well, younger than me, and I was about 19, or 20, or 21.
Sothey were .
.
14, 15-year-olds, definitely.
Right.
Did you ever see or witness Teret doing anything, or? Not personally, no.
He was He wasa bit sly.
And the one time I knew Savile was there, it was in the summer, the window was open.
I was emptying the van and I heard Savile say, "Who's that?" AndI assume Ray Teret said, "Oh, he's Pete.
One of the roadies.
" And Savile said, "Get rid of him.
" You mentioned something about names being written on the wall.
Yeah, there was three charts.
Three charts? Yeah.
That was all the young girls.
Well, girls' names.
Erm Initials for schools, phone number, and various stars next to their names.
- Stars.
- Yeah.
I.
e.
, five-star, four-star, whatever.
Erm and what time was best to call them.
So I'm assuming that that was when the parents weren't about, or OK.
OK.
Operation Canute begun when a number of women made allegations against Teret.
One of the first to come forward was Cathy.
Just try and give me as much detail as you can, why you're here today.
I found myself getting churned up because whenever you see Savile on the television or the radio - the mannerisms and stuff - it reminds me of Teret.
A lot of it.
Erm And, you know, I went round to Teret's shop, erm, when he got this music shop - it was just around the corner - and, er, I was about 12.
And I used to I had a Saturday job there.
I thought Teret was my friend.
I kind of trusted him as a friend.
I'm an alligator I'm a mama-papa coming for you I'm a space invader I'll be a rock and rollin' bitch for you Keep your mouth shut You're squawkin' like a pink monkey bird ' And I'm busting up my brains for the words' What were you like as a young girl? I used to love music.
Music was my passion.
If I was feeling in a certain mood, I would put very rebellious music on.
David Bowie or something, and really sing it with a passion.
So, a tomboy.
Most definitely a tomboy.
My mum tried to do my hair once for me and was very disappointed that I went straight out to the rugby pitch and got all mucked up again.
I used to spend a lot of my time upside down.
I used to love gymnastics.
So I was constantly I think my mum used despair because I would be hanging over the banisters just by my fingers, quite often.
And I'd be there for hours, singing.
And, so, can you remember the first time you heard of Ray Teret? I didn't hear of him, I kind of went into the record shop.
The curious This new shop had opened and I went in there, and, you know, that was my introduction to him.
He was very welcoming to us.
You know, we'd We'd pulled out all this music we wanted to, then we got turfed out, told what to go.
Then he said, "Come on your own next time.
" I can't remember what the deal was - some records, or something - if I brought a friend round.
I don't know.
Some demo Bloody cheap, crappy demo records.
And I took my friend to see this man.
He had me doing sex while she was there, like, you know, this is what you do.
Then, when he'd finished, we just went home.
I just felt so embarrassed.
We will do everything we can to find evidence to corroborate what she says, but, at the moment, it's one word against another.
So we very much need to look to increase the investigation, to try to get corroborative evidence.
Now, she talks about being encouraged to bring her other school friends.
And she is able to give us the names of those other schoolchildren.
These people were absolutely corroborate what Cathy is saying, and if we find some of these people we may, in fact, uncover other victims.
The whole neighbourhood had suspicions of what was going on.
He was so blatant.
People in the shop saw it going on.
If anyone would have opened their eyes, it would've been spotted.
Would you be able to draw, like, a plan drawing of his flat? - To his music shop.
- I'd try my best.
With where the different bits of furniture and things were.
Yeah.
Yeah.
- Yeah? - Yeah.
OK, you come up the stairs, right, into the hall way.
In the hallway it had, all along in the walls in the hallway, it had all the phone numbers, erm, pictures, all sorts It was just like graffitied walls.
Working with sex offenders, it's awkward.
It's talking about sex, it's talking about violence, erm and some police officers aren't comfortable with it.
Some are great dealing with a robbery on a bank, or of a bookmakers, and they'll jump at the opportunity to investigate something like that.
But, for rape not everybody feels comfortable having to go and deal with someone and ask them intimate details about the incident.
And not only that, but intimate details about their past, as well.
- 'Police have released a description of a man 'they wish to question in connection with the rape of a 13-year-old schoolgirl.
'He is described as 5ft 8in in height, medium build, 'and wearing a pale blue vest top and camouflage shorts.
' Did you You did see his face, didn't you? Yeah.
And you mentioned in your statement that you think you'd remember him if you saw him again.
Do you Dressed the same.
Lovely.
The team investigating the case of the 13-year-old who was raped has uncovered a new lead.
There's a lot of media attention with this one.
It's a 13-year-old girl who was walking to school, and we've come up with a chap who's in an obvious agitated state saying, "The lad you're looking for is my best mate.
" "He, er ".
.
was with me up until five o'clock in the morning, "the morning of the job.
"He was wearing a blue vest and three-quarter khaki shorts.
" "And he phoned me at six minutes past eight saying, 'If anybody asks, I was with you till nine o'clock.
'" Less than an hour later, a suspect is brought into custody.
His name is Paul Fenner.
Have you seen the offender? I'll show you a picture of this guy that he's described.
He's described our offender as looking like him, with the forehead.
It's spot on, yeah.
It's a really, really good likeness.
Yeah.
Transfer that.
Yeah.
If somebody's in custody, what I'll ask my staff to do is, get a first account, and when I say "first account interview", it's literally, switch that tape on and ask them a big, open question and let them tell you what's happened.
There is that temptation, an urge to go in and say, "Look, "you know, this is what we've got", and not waste any time.
But we let them give their version of events first and let them say what they need to say, and then we'll switch that tape off and come away, and then we'll carry on the investigation based on that.
Jo brings in detectives Christine and Steve to interview the suspect.
I really do love interviewing.
It's the best part of my job.
Steve was a trainee, but he asked, could he go lead, which is good.
You know, he wanted to take the interview even though it was a big interview.
Even though I really wanted to do the interview! People don't realise just how much detail we go into when we're conducting the investigation.
We'll find out whether you're telling the truth or not.
I've actually had a lad pull his legs up to his chest and turn around in the chair, so that he had the back of the chair facing me as some form of protection against what I was saying to him because he knew that he'd been caught out in so many lies.
If you come to the police .
.
you tell lies .
.
you're not going anywhere.
OK.
OK, Paul.
I'd got And just sitting TV and just bored .
.
chat to him a bit cos we both work long hours.
Then, as I was driving back, I'd seen a lad who I'd met a few times at a few friends' houses.
- What's his name again? - I just know him as 'Moz'.
Which, at the moment in time, the plumbing shop was actually overdue with money and I'd had no working this week, so I said, "Yeah", and then got the money until he was leaving the van back.
I've got the rape of a 13-year-old, the 533 that come in on the 18th.
Anne was one of the two CSIs that went to the scene and recovered It was a blindfold.
It was actually a pair of socks tied together, but it was used as a blindfold on the victim.
We need a photograph of those socks to put to the suspect in interview this morning.
The scene is bushes and waste ground where he's dragged his victim.
Paul Fenner's first interview is over.
He's started off with his account.
He basically says that he drives into Leigh town centre, where he bumps into a male who he knows vaguely as Moz.
He describes Moz, and Moz is pretty much the same description as himself.
When he's asked to go into detail about Moz, he says, "I just know him vaguely.
I don't know where he lives.
" But Moz asks him if he'll lend him his van for four hours.
What's also bizarre is, when he's asked about his clothing, he says that he is wearing a light blue vest-type top.
For some reason, he decides that he's chilly, so he takes the vest top off and leaves that in the van.
He says, when he get the van back, he says the blue vest top is missing.
Victim describes him as wearing this light blue top at the time of the attack.
I'd like to say I can switch off, and you can go on holiday and switch off, but we don't.
We don't switch off.
It does form part of who you are.
You know, cops will tell you they turn it off when they go home.
We don't.
We don't.
- So, does that mean you're instinctively nosey, - or just have an awareness? - No, I'm nosey.
I'm nosey.
You know, I might phrase it that I'm more aware, but I'm nosey.
I think that's And that's probably what makes me a good police officer, is that I am nosey.
The Operation Canute team is following up leads from Cathy, one of the first women to make abuse allegations against DJ Ray Teret.
They've tracked down one of Cathy's friends from the '70s.
Carol is going to interview her with another detective.
Part of the training that we do, you know, the trainers will say to you, "OK, everybody have a private moment" ".
.
and think about the most embarrassing sexual moment "you've ever had.
" So, they give you a few minutes to think about it, and then they'll say to you, "OK, what I want you to do is to tell "the person to your right all the details.
" Now, in the training environment, of course everybody starts laughing and thinking, "Oh, well, I'm not going to do that!" But it just gives you that moment, that sharp intake of breath about, it's one thing saying, "Think about it", it's another thing to say, "Tell the person next to you.
" But it's just to give you a little bit of a flavour of what we're asking our victims to do.
Turn left, then keep right.
Recalculating.
All she has actually told me is that her and Cathy were best friends at school, they were in the same class and she's confirmed Cathy's address and said they would go around from.
Cathy's to a record shop round the corner that belonged to Ray Teret.
- Right.
Do you want that filling up? - No.
The witness doesn't know that Cathy is part of the investigation, and hasn't spoken to her for 40 years.
OK.
I'd just like for you to confirm you received a letter from the Greater Manchester Police, and within that letter, I explained I was part of an inquiry that was investigating a man by the name of Ray Teret.
Receiving that letter, I nearly passed out, actually, I couldn't believe it.
First of all, how you'd found me and my maiden name and everything.
The first thing I did was phone you.
You will probably be doing most of the talking because I'll ask you questions and ask you to explain things for me, but I will ask you questions to confirm details and to get a bit more detail about what you're saying.
My friend, um .
.
lived on the corner from where his record shop was and his flat above, and that was how I first met him.
I didn't know whether Oh, God! I didn't know anything was wrong, I don't.
I never, like, told anybody or anything like that.
Just I know this is difficult, but try to tell me if you can.
We heard young girls were going there as well, I think from the school up the road.
You'll see in her the turmoil of telling a story about when she was 13 or 14 .
.
trying to justify it in her head now as a 50-year-old woman.
Those conflicts You can see them in her face.
He used to Didn't want me going in the record shop, I just used to knock on the door at the side and go up to the flat.
He just .
.
always something sexual happened there.
Were you aware of anything else in relation to anybody else? Yeah, he used to go out with Cathy as well.
Did you and Cathy ever talk about what happened? We must have done at the time, but I don't remember what we said to each other or anything like that.
Oh, God.
You're doing well, I know it's really difficult.
I tried to bury it all, you know.
- OK.
- I'm remembering all I can.
We do use the term "building blocks" in an investigation, and the starting block is the first complainant.
The next building block will come from when you get another victim.
When we find them, they have no idea how we have got to them.
So we never revealed we're here because.
X, Y and Z have mentioned you.
So from there, we got a very uncontaminated corroboration that this girl says, "I was groomed at the same time as this girl was.
" And each of them did not know that we'd found the other girl.
I know this is difficult, Ann.
My name is Rod Carter, I'm a detective from Greater Manchester.
- Have you got a couple of minutes? - Yeah, come in.
No.
That one was a miss.
I can't tell you when it was and I can't tell you what time it was or anything like that, but I'm almost certain in my own mind, I've seen girls, young schoolgirls, from the grammar school, in his car.
Because they used to hang around that bloody record shop.
You know what I mean? They were like flies around shit.
'I didn't bother going in the record shop, 'just use the knock on the door at the side and go up to the flat.
' Would you be able to draw a plan drawing of his flat? I'll try my best.
You mentioned something about names being written on the wall.
And that was all young girls' names.
OK, you've come up the stairs into the hallway.
In the hallway, it had all along in the walls in the hallway, it had all the phone numbers, pictures, all sorts, it was just like graffitied walls.
If I said "rapist" to somebody, they would never think a rapist as being, you know, Mrs Smith's husband, that would never be the perception.
Before I joined the police, I always had a stereotype that sex offenders, paedophiles, were sort of, you know, they all looked a certain way and they looked creepy.
But when you're actually carrying out the job and you're in that world, there's such a broad variety.
When a suspect comes in, sometimes we'll gather round the computer, you know, our intelligence system, and when they come into custody they get a photograph taken and we'll load up the photograph all stand around the computer and go, "This is him.
" It'll come up and be like, "Oh, he's a weedy little thing, isn't he?" You sort of have an idea what they're going to be like and sometimes you're like, I can't believe that they've done this.
So it's, yeah, it can be quite a shock sometimes.
Paul Fenner, a suspect in the rape of the 13-year-old, has been in custody for three days.
What have they said to you? Mum, it wasn't me.
Mum, honestly, I can't discuss it, but it wasn't me.
You know I'm not Just look after All right? All right, see Love you.
Bye.
Jo has tracked down Paul Fenner's alibi, Moz, the man HE claims the borrowed his van.
So that takes us now to Joe's trip out to Wigan and trying to establish who Moz is because we did some workor Gary did some work We went to the last address we've got for him.
A guy answered the door and confirmed that he'd gone on holiday a week ago on Monday and he was due back next week.
He'd gone away with his girlfriend and parents abroad, so he was out of the country.
Is Fenner confirms the man they found is his alibi, the detectives will have proof that he is lying.
A bit quiet.
.
.
if not skinnier.
Right, we left off there.
It does look like hima bit longer hair.
Got a picture of Moz during the suspect interview.
Handed it to the suspect and said, "Is this the Moz "you actually handed the keys over to, and used your van?" And he said yes.
All I can imagine is, once he's seen that, he's thought, "I'll give them a yes because that will just "throw them off the path and they'll go and speak to him "and try and trace him and he's hard to trace, all that type of thing.
" They are the socks that were used to blindfold the victim.
They're quite distinctive.
They come from a pack of four which Asda sell.
There's an Asda store which is 24-hour shop over in Leigh.
We've actually got footage of him coming into the store just after four o'clock in the morning.
He was questioned about the socks, clearly, on interview, and he was very vague about when he purchased them.
I think, when he was initially asked, he gives some months before or around Christmas time.
His story then changed to a lot more recently.
Up to the weekend before the offence taking place.
What he didn't say was that he'd bought them that morning.
So, in his hand there he's got a pack of four socks.
- And that's at what time? 4.
03 in the morning? - 4.
03, yes.
And what time was the girl attacked? Between 7.
30am and 8am, wasn't it? We've ripped your alibi to shreds, we've ripped everything you've said to shreds Armed with the evidence, Steve and Christine enter the final stage of the interview.
The challenge phase.
That is when you hit all your inconsistencies.
Your lies.
That's when we will actually delve into that and it's far more impact to do that at the end of the interview process.
If somebody's telling you a lie, then you will go into as much detail as you possibly can.
It's like they've just pulled out a shovel and they're digging a bigger hole for themselves.
Because they are then telling you a lie in huge detail.
It's like gold.
You keep on telling me lies, keep on telling me lies.
And you challenge them.
How do you account for the fact How do you account for the fact How do you account for the fact that the 13-year-old rape victim Right, Paul, listen to what the officer is going to say to you.
OK, Paul, you are charged with the following offences.
You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention now something which you later rely on in court.
Anything you do say may be given in evidence.
On the 18th June 2013 at Wigan in the County of Greater Manchester you committed an offence, namely forcing a 13-year-old schoolgirl to remove her clothing with the intention of committing a relevant sexual offence contrary to section 62 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.
Do you wish to make any reply to that charge, Paul? On the 18th June 2013 Do you want me to contact your parents and see in there's anything they can bring you? Let me speak to your parents and see if they're all right with it.
I was in court when the sentence was read out and his family were there and, you know, his family were really upset.
His mum was there, his dad was there, his brothers were there, they were all crying.
You know, the effect that one incident, you know, one incident what he actually decided to do, the effect of that was massive in terms of the victim's family and also the offender's family.
The first time I met the victim, it was quite strange because it was as though nothing had happened to her.
Mum and Dad found it quite hard that there was no tears, there was no There was nothing, she just said, "I'm going back to school.
" But weeks down the line, it started to come out, that there was anger there and then there was tears.
It's quite hard because .
.
it destroys people.
I don't think it ever goes away.
Didn't we have ourselves some kind of a summer? Didn't we have ourselves some kind of a time? We are just having fun on the Ray Teret Show.
'Right, what's your plan for the week? Are you going to work? 'OK, that's normal.
'Have you made any plans for your future?' This morning, we are travelling to a flat that used to be occupied by Ray Teret.
A lot of our victims are suggesting there may graffiti on the walls of the property.
Teret's previously been interviewed before I came onto this enquiry.
His defence at the moment seems to be that he doesn't know any of these girls or any of these victims that have come forward.
The property we're at now used to be a record shop in the mid '70s.
And as you see, schoolchildren and schoolgirls walking past the property.
I mean, it's now 20 past eight in the morning and.
on their way to school.
And there is a girls' school just a few hundred yards up the road.
And from what the victims have said, Teret used to encourage the girls to come into his shop.
From the door, video initially just video the flat itself as we go up.
And I just want the layout of the flat, really.
Our crime scene photographer is just getting the layout of the flat.
Even if there's nothing behind that wallpaper, they've described the flat, where the various offences took place.
This is On either this side or this side is where we think it's going to be.
Obviously there's one sheet of paper there.
And this one goes to the top there, - so it'll just be these two we're taking off.
- Right.
"If you need "If you need me, call me.
"All my love, Denise.
" Do you want to wait for the still or do you want me to carry on? No, carry on.
There's a lot of names here, mate, we don't know.
There's at least 30 names on here.
- 'You're joking.
' - No, I'm not.
- Does that say Ray? - Yeah.
There's even a picture, a hand-drawn picture that's got fuzzy hair, of a bloke with fuzzy hair, with "Ray" pointing down to him.
And "You're good looking.
" 'Greater Manchester Police have arrested Jimmy Savile's 'former flatmate and chauffeur over fresh allegations 'of historic sex abuse against children.
'More victims have come forward.
' I absolutely want, in the challenge phase, pause before, because he's now thinking, "What's he going to ask me?" Knowing you are building up and building up and building up, until we get to these last two, where we've got independent evidence that he is having sex with young children.