Mind Over Murder (2022) s01e02 Episode Script

What my life
would have been like
if didn't go through this.
I know it's weird
to look back and think, "Well,
"what would you have been doing
at 25?
What would you have been doing
at 26?"
Instead of what
I was really doing.
When I was close to 18,
I worked
at Marshall's Truck Stop.
It was open 24 hours a day,
so we always got all
the drunks and stuff at night.
I met Cliff at the truck stop.
He was just strange,
but he was fascinating enough
to like him as a friend.
He always told
tons of stories.
Which, later on in life,
we pretty much found out
most of them weren't true.
I just wanted to be accepted.
So I just took
what came my way as friends.
We ended up getting ourselves
in trouble.
He brought up an idea
to drive downtown
to an adult bookstore.
He used to do something called
"roll a fag."
You know what that means?
Well, it's where you go
to wherever a fag hangs out,
and you roll them
for their money.
Cliff walked me
through the whole process
of how to do it
and how to pretend
that you were interested
in a person.
If they see you walk
in the booth,
if they wanna come in
and join you in the booth,
they would run their foot
underneath the door,
and that would let you know
to let them in.
So this person came in,
and then he started touching.
I was supposed to draw
this person to an area
to where Cliff could come in
and rob him.
So I said, "I think I need
to meet up with my friend."
He says, "I'm gonna be working
at this place.
If you want to stop by later,
just let me know."
Course, we drank
a couple of things
to get a little more courage.
I went in first.
I was just supposed to be
the decoy to draw him in,
and then Cliff was gonna
take over from there.
So I get in there, and I get
in the back with his guy,
and it's getting
really heavy fast.
Cliff came in.
He was just
supposed to hit him once,
and then the guy would,
I guess, be knocked out.
Well, this guy
didn't fall down.
And he just kept hitting him
and hitting him.
And I thought
for sure the guy was dead.
There was so much blood.
When we went in to jail,
they divided us.
I went into protective custody
because I was scared of Cliff.
They have you isolated
in a cell
all by yourself,
so you wanna get out
any chance you can.
Burt Searcey,
he came to the jail
and started asking questions.
And that was bad for me.
Tom Winslow was under arrest
and in Lancaster County Jail.
I felt like, wow, you know?
If this guy will do that,
I may be on to something.
I may be right.
So I packed up my goods,
and I went
to Lincoln, Nebraska.
I had Kent Harlan come down.
We set the camera up.
I was excited anytime
I got the opportunity to help
because I was getting to work
on something,
even if I wasn't asking
the questions.
Hopefully, I could run
the videotape right
'cause that was my job.
It was push play and sit
and babysit the camera.
That's pretty much what it was.
Thomas, can you advise as to why
you are at this location at this time?
to have to do
with the Helen Wilson homicide.
In question, is there
anyone else present in this room
at this time,
other than yourself and myself?
County Attorney Richard Smith,
I was appointed to represent
Tom Winslow
in an assault case.
He was in jail for it
following his arrest
for the beating
of a Lincoln motel clerk.
And he wanted out.
And he decided
that if he could prove himself
to be a valuable witness
in this case in Beatrice,
they might let him go.
And that's when he decided
to talk
and make his statement.
Have you ever
had any other occasions
to speak with myself
at any other times?
A couple other times.
I'd already talked
to Tom Winslow
in his apartment
way back in 1985.
And I said, "Tom, on the night
of February 5th,
"I have a witness
that seen you driving your car
"and parking it.
And JoAnn Taylor and
Joseph White was with you."
And when I said that to him,
he's like, "Whoa.
That wasn't me. I was working."
The night that this homicide
supposedly took place.
Which I was not.
I told you I did not know
nothing about it at all.
And was those true
and accurate statements?
No.
We went riding around.
Now would you identify
who "we" may be?
You're talking about "we."
myself.
So I was in the middle, JoAnn was by
the door, and Joseph was driving my car.
They start talking about how they
wanted to rob this old lady,
but they were not for sure whether
they would get away with it or not.
And right then I decided
And I had already promised them my car.
So I went ahead and let them take the car.
And I got out of the car
at 6th and Ella,
and they took my car.
During the interview
with Mr. Winslow,
we knew
that he was holding back.
It was almost like
he was testing to see
what we knew.
And he wanted to give
one little piece at a time
not to implicate himself
any further
than he absolutely had to.
I have a little feeling
that maybe you know a little
more yet than you're telling me,
am I right or wrong?
- Tom?
- Everything that I know?
Am I right or wrong, have
you left something out yet?
Possibly, but I'm having a hard
time remembering everything.
He was not telling me
the truth.
I knew it.
I stopped the interview.
You wanna shut that off a minute?
His attorney
did give him counsel.
Tom Winslow thought the more
valuable he could make himself,
the better off
he was going to be,
deciding maybe he could talk
his way out of jail.
Believe me, if you try to talk
your way out of jail,
you'll talk your way
into the penitentiary.
My advice is always don't talk,
but if you insist on talking,
tell the truth.
We started
the interview up again,
and then he started
kinda telling
what I thought was the truth.
the apartment building.
- You did go to her apartment?
- Yes we did.
How many people went there?
And name 'em.
Myself, JoAnn Taylor, and Lobo.
I was saying,
you know, this is dangerous,
what you're doing.
You're gonna make yourself
an accomplice,
or you're gonna be part
of a felony murder charge.
Something could happen.
But Winslow had his own agenda.
The lady started for the phone,
and Lobo pushed her out of
the way of the phone,
And at that time
I heard the lady scream
and I exited.
He had gone with them,
he'd provided the car,
he'd gone in,
he'd gone into the apartment.
He admitted
to being in the crime scene.
He admitted to seeing
Joseph White manhandling her.
I had no choice but to assume
that he was telling the truth.
How are you feeling right now?
I feel like
my heart's racing a lot.
What's your relationship with
Joe White and JoAnn Taylor?
I met Joe at the truck stop.
Joe and JoAnn were traveling.
And they came in.
And they were probably three
to four years older than me.
I'm in a small town.
They're in LA and Florida.
So when they tell wild stories
about these places,
it's interesting to a kid.
I didn't have
a lot of friends in school.
And I didn't do all the things
that normal guys did sometimes.
Joe was very accepting.
JoAnn was very accepting.
They had no place to stay,
and at that time,
I had an apartment.
So I let them move in with me
and stay there.
Sort of became a group
and hung out,
did most things together,
like go to bars and stuff.
And then you get drunk,
and then it's not good.
My mom and dad used to get
mad at me, though.
They used to tell me
they were nothing but trouble.
I was gonna get in trouble if
I stayed hanging out with them.
But of course, as a kid,
if your parents tell you
you can't hang out with somebody,
what are you gonna do?
You're gonna hang out
with that person more.
When Burt questioned you,
you first said that JoAnn and Joe
took the car.
But then 40 minutes later, you admitted
that you went into the apartment too.
Why did you say that?
I don't know.
A very bad situation to where
it should've never went
anyway near where it went.
Gage County judge
Steven B. Timm
issued warrants for the arrest
of Ada JoAnn Taylor
and Joseph Edgar White
for the felony murder
of Helen L. Wilson.
23-year-old
Thomas Winslow's information
played an important part
in the arrests
of 25-year-old
Ada JoAnn Taylor
and 26-year-old
Joseph Edgar White.
I found JoAnn Taylor
in Buncombe County,
North Carolina.
And Joseph White was living
outside of Cullman, Alabama.
I Mirandized him.
I asked for blood, hair sample.
Joseph White, to me,
appeared to be
a simple, non-caring guy.
He liked the low life.
He went hobnobbing,
jumping from this little thing
to that little thing.
Ended up in California.
Got involved in doing
porn star stuff.
He was quiet.
Kinda kept to himself.
Didn't need to tell you
anything,
didn't need to prove
anything to you.
Almost cold. Just cold.
I think we interviewed him
maybe for approximately
an hour.
He denied everything.
Said he didn't know her,
said he didn't have
any contact with her.
He wasn't there.
He just wasn't gonna talk
to me.
You know, if you want me,
you gotta get me.
People always say,
"How can you represent
somebody that's charged
with a crime?"
particularly in serious crimes
like sexual assault or murder,
and people
you're defending the defendant,
of course,
but what you're really doing
is defending
the constitutional rights
of the defendant.
Joe White had a sordid past,
but, you know,
90% of my clients
have sordid pasts,
so that was no big deal.
The only thing
I remember Joe saying
is that every time
the issue came up
is that he didn't do it.
You present him with evidence,
Joe just said,
"Hey, I didn't do it."
I expected him
not to admit to anything.
It didn't surprise me.
Strategy with him then
is, okay,
if I asked you questions and
you don't wanna answer them,
then I'm gonna have to go,
and I'm gonna have to do
a lot of footwork
to get the answer
that you ain't gonna tell me.
I knew JoAnn Taylor.
She was a young lady
that was always in or about
or around a area
when something was going on.
This is Deputy Searcey of the
Gage County Sheriff's Department
taking a videotaped voluntary statement
from Ada JoAnn,
last name Taylor.
JoAnn, can you advise as to
what location you are at this time?
I'm at the Buncombe County
Sheriff's Department - in custody.
We started interviewing her
and going over the fact if she
knew anything about the case,
and she was awful nervous
but willing to talk.
JoAnn, do you have any knowledge
of an incident which occurred
in the 200 block of North 6th Street
in an apartment building
which may have involved
an incident which occurred of the homicide
of a lady whom is known as Helen Wilson?
I have some recollection.
Okay. And how do you have that knowledge?
was present at the time it happened.
Was there anyone else with you?
There was Lobo and another boy.
I don't remember the other guy's name.
And JoAnn can you tell me the approximate
time that this may have occurred?
To the best of my recollection,
it was between 5:30 and 7 in the evening.
Are you sure of the time at this time?
Not completely.
I remember partially being there,
but I have a problem with my memory,
I block a lot of bad things out.
I always have.
When you're talking to
someone and interviewing them,
sometimes they'll give you
parts of the story
that are true,
and other parts aren't.
JoAnn, how come you remember some
things, and then not the other things?
That's the way my mind is.
It's fucked up, literally.
My psychologist will tell you,
it comes and goes when it wants to.
JoAnn Taylor
was obviously a woman
with serious
psychological problems.
Her background is horrific.
She was raped the first time
when she was nine years old.
Then she was married
when she was 14 years old.
She came to Beatrice
with Joseph White in 1984.
Didn't live in Beatrice
very long.
Even though she had a lot
of experience with Beatrice
while she was here.
I'm reviewing
some police reports.
October 22nd of 1984,
Mark Goodson claims that JoAnn
tried to strangle him.
He advised that the people
who came with her
was Joseph White
and Clifford Shelden.
There's another report.
It says that JoAnn
had stolen a watch at Kmart.
Lisa Podendorf stated that
a Medana-brand wristwatch
was stolen on or about 12/23
of '82 by JoAnn Taylor.
January 1st of 1985,
a Charlotte Mendenhall
had been beaten
by JoAnn Taylor.
These reports suggest
that JoAnn is a violent person.
The kind of person
that might commit
a violent act.
In addition, she gave enormous
detail about what happened.
When we got there, and he started
getting mean with the lady.
I tried to grab Lobo's arm
to make him leave her alone,
and he shoved me backwards.
As the incident goes on, can you tell me
what else may have happened?
He raped her.
She implicated herself
and Joseph White.
She had another man,
but she couldn't remember
the name.
Anything else happened between
Lobo or anyone else in this?
The other boy raped her physically.
Can you describe what took place?
It wasn't normal.
It was as a bisexual
or a homosexual would.
Through the anal.
Through the anal?
Do you have any knowledge
of anything else about that
person that you can tell me today?
Is there anything else
you can tell me about him
that might be able to help me?
That he worked out at the truck stop.
If you was to see this particular person,
either by picture or in person,
could you identify that person?
Most likely.
Do you believe you could
identify that person?
I think so.
I then made a photo lineup.
Of course,
I put the subject in there
that I felt might be
the individual
due to her description of him.
I set it down in front of her
and told her I wanted her
to look at the photos.
She pointed out Tom Winslow.
Preliminary hearings
were set for April 13th
for three people charged
with first-degree murder
in the slaying
of a Beatrice woman
more than four years ago.
26-year-old Joseph Edgar White
of Cullman, Alabama;
25-year-old Ada JoAnn Taylor
of Asheville, North Carolina;
and 23-year-old Thomas Winslow
of Wymore
are all being held without
bond in the county jail.
I'm Marshall Tuttle,
and I'm reading
for Tom Winslow.
The first time I got married,
I was 18 years old.
It didn't last very long.
We separated
after seven months.
That was a difficult time.
I thought a lot about suicide.
I guess I've always been
a nervous, insecure person.
Drinking helped me
with the emotional pain,
but I would get blackouts.
What are your impressions
reading about Tom Winslow?
He had found himself
with a bad group,
but he still felt like he would
do anything for them.
So this is a coat chosen
for JoAnn Taylor.
Mainly because
it's kind of loud and bold
and in your face.
And I feel like
that's very much
JoAnn Taylor's character.
I knew JoAnn Taylor
because my brother
actually dated her
for a short period of time
the year before the murder,
and it only lasted a few weeks
because she,
at one point, gave him
a very expensive watch,
and my mom knew
that she was not well off
enough to afford this watch,
and she thought it was stolen.
And she told him,
"You need to give that back
"to her because
that is too nice of a gift
"for a high school boy to be
given to by his girlfriend."
She actually had
a baby girl here,
and that baby was removed
due to allegations
of child neglect.
And then she ended up
going out to California,
and that's
where she met Joseph White.
Josh Erikson.
I'm reading
for Joseph White's part.
I wound up in LA
where I thought the action was.
I did some nude modeling
out there
under the name
of Lone Wolf Bronson.
And they started calling me
Lobo.
I have a wolf tattoo
on my back.
The wolf
is my favorite creature.
He's a survivor.
Joseph White,
during our interviews,
I had learned
by more than one person,
he liked to do
a trick with money.
Lobo liked doing a trick with money.
JoAnn, did you ever see Lobo doing
a trick or something with money?
Mm-hmm.
What would he do?
He would tear it up.
a president,
a dairy product, and a famous movie.
And the president, of course,
would be the president on the bill.
The dairy product would be half-and-half,
at which time he'd tear the bill in half.
And then the movie would be
'Gone With the Wind'
and he'd throw one half
of the bill in the air,
and the other half
he'd stick in his pocket.
Officer: JoAnn, you've seen Lobo
take a five-dollar bill out of that -
out of that purse that night
and tear it in half, didn't you?
Mm-hmm.
And you've seen him
throw it on the ground?
Yeah.
And why would he do that?
He liked doing it.
He thought it was fun and cute.
In the crime scene,
there was a $5 bill
laying on the floor.
At least there was a reason
why that half a $5 bill
might be laying there.
During their
initial investigation
of the crime scene,
they were able to extract
the blood.
Joseph White, Tom Winslow,
and JoAnn Taylor,
according
to the serologist reports,
none of them were type B.
Blood, it's only a part.
You're looking
for those blood samples,
but they are not necessarily
the key to the door.
We had all these statements.
We had all the evidence.
You gotta remember,
everything that happened,
I had to be able to answer for.
At that point in time,
I'm thinking,
"You need to dig into this.
You need to get more
information than you got."
I was 22 when I started
at the sheriff's office.
At that time, we were hired
as dispatchers and jailers.
We also did the dictation.
They would do a statement.
They would record it.
We'd type it out.
When this investigation
was going on,
we were typing nonstop.
I started
trying to find out
who was affiliated
with these people
and may have been involved.
When I talked to someone
and a name came up,
I'd talk to that person.
If I talked to them
and another name come up,
I'd talk to that person.
Beth Johnson was married
to Tom Winslow,
so I went to her.
I was not
in Mrs. Helen Wilson's apartment,
that's the truth.
If you weren't with Tom
the night of the Wilson homicide,
who would've been?
I don't know. But it wasn't me!
Mark Goodson
was another one.
His name had come up
in some of the conversations.
He went by the nickname of 'Snake.'
Snake would have been
Mark Goodson, right? Okay.
Mark, do you know anyone
by the name of Tom Winslow?
Yes, I do.
I met him through JoAnn Taylor.
I found out he was bisexual.
Did you ever have any sexual activity
with Mr. Winslow?
No.
- With Mr. White?
- No.
- With JoAnn Taylor?
- Yes.
Every one of them
had some reputation.
There was a lot
of bunny hopping.
I found Tom in bed
with Lobo
having sex
in the wrong end.
And then he turned around and had sex
with me, and I got crabs from him.
You try to gather
what you can
from different people,
and you take that information
and you further it
with something else,
and you just proceed on.
What other girl would've been
with Tom that night, if it wasn't you?
I don't know, it was some woman,
there was two other people besides Tom,
and Lobo and JoAnn.
Some woman and some man.
But I'd never seen 'em before -
that's the truth!
Was there another person?
Could there have been another female?
There could've been.
A good case,
you can tell a story
from A to B.
If you don't talk to everybody,
you can't get all the answers,
and you won't complete
your story.
Just a little while ago you told
me the person that you were in love with.
Mm-hmm.
Red-headed boy.
- Was he still on your mind?
- Yeah.
Did he have a girlfriend back in Beatrice?
He was seeing somebody because
after we split up we stayed friends.
And this bothered you didn't it?
Yeah, it hurt.
She was, pardon the expression,
but she was fucking with my man.
Do you recall his name?
Clifford Lee Shelden.
Here we go.
I heard that you were pretty popular.
Yeah, pretty much.
Tell me about it.
I got along with everybody,
Didn't get mad at anybody,
hopefully didn't have
nobody hating me
How did you meet Tom Winslow?
I was at a truck stop.
It was raining that night.
I was on a motorcycle
at that time.
And I really didn't wanna
ride in the rain,
so he offered to put me up
for the night.
And I guess we became friends.
He introduced me
Joseph White and JoAnn Taylor.
All we did was just hang out.
Good times, yeah.
Do you remember dating JoAnn?
You never dated JoAnn?
Never did.
Yeah, I knew her,
but I never dated her.
Excuse the phrase, but there's
plenty of fish in the sea.
I mean, she wasn't my type. No.
Debbie's my type.
I met Cliff
through a girl
that I knew at school.
I dressed funny.
I had plaid clothes on.
My hair was cut like a boy's.
She had a short haircut.
Oh, T-shirts and plaid pants.
I said, "Well,
"you know,
"New things."
He always was nice to me.
He never called me fat
or nothing.
He was always respectable.
I fell in love with him, yeah.
I love her to death.
I wouldn't do for her.
He proposed.
She proposed to me first.
I moved in with him,
and we got married
April of '85.
It was quite an ordeal.
Tom Winslow was our witness.
We got married
in front of a judge.
I said "I do" twice.
Because I took Cliff
away from her.
So she went and stabbed him.
That's when she ran
to the kitchen
and stabbed me in my arm.
And that's all because of me.
I met them all through Cliff,
the ones that I got
in trouble with, actually.
even think about this.
I got arrested with Tom
in October of '88.
I think it was about
three months after that
that I realized that I was
gonna be gone for a long time.
I got a phone call
and was told Clifford Shelden
wants to talk
about the Helen Wilson case.
And so I did
an interview with him
at the Lancaster County Jail.
At that moment,
I was thinking,
who can you trust?
And at that time, I thought,
nobody but myself.
Yeah.
He said
he was in the hospital
during the night
of the homicide,
and I confirmed that
with the hospital.
But then he started talking.
Well, apparently,
they were looking for a woman
that was involved
in this murder.
They described her to me.
They said that she had
black hair, glasses,
little older, heavyset.
I said, "Well, yeah,
that sounds like my wife."
He said, "I think
she might be involved."
And I said,
"Wow.
He's implicated his wife?"
The sheriff picked me up
at home.
They drove me down
to Lincoln jail,
and then all of a sudden,
I was arrested.
Debra, what did you tell us
during that interview
that took place in Lincoln?
You'll need to speak up.
and how it happened and everything.
And did you tell us that the reason why
you knew where it was
and how it happened
was due to the fact that you were
present during the time it took place?
Yes.
We proceeded
to interview her,
and she was very explicit
and detailed.
We went upstairs.
We went to the apartment.
And do you recall the
number of that apartment?
Four.
And did you have any knowledge as to
who may have lived in that
apartment at that time?
Helen Wilson.
And did you know that personally?
Yes.
She was my aunt.
Debra Shelden was related
to my grandmother,
I don't know, great-niece
or second cousin or something.
My grandma had a chain
on her door
that was always on her door.
She never took that chain off
except for to let somebody in.
She let them in.
If it was a cold night
outside and stuff,
yeah, she would've let her in
'cause she knew her.
When Helen Wilson
answered the door,
she seen Debbie,
recognized her, said hi.
Joseph White, JoAnn Taylor,
and everybody pushed
through the door,
knocking her backwards
and entering the house.
I told him
everything that happened,
that I saw her getting raped
and everything,
and who done it.
I told him Tom Winslow
and Joseph White.
He unbuckled his pants,
he pulled them down,
Tom Winslow spread her legs.
I told him that JoAnn Taylor,
she put the pillow
over her face.
She was at her head
And what was she
doing with that?
so she couldn't see.
I never worked on a case
where someone laid it out
black and white like that
for me ever.
When Debbie did that, were you surprised?
Big-time.
It's like she wanted
to get it off her chest.
Debbie said, "I was there,
"JoAnn Taylor was there,
"Tom Winslow was there,
and another guy."
How many did you tell us
was involved yesterday?
Three.
Three?
Thomas Winslow, JoAnn Taylor,
and Joseph White.
And who else?
- I was there.
- Okay.
Five.
And now you say James Dean was there?
James Dean.
I said,
"I talked to you before,
"and you never mentioned this.
Why?"
"Well, I had forgot.
But he was there."
And why couldn't you remember that?
Why was you blocking it?
I wasn't thinking enough
to get it all out.
Tell me what it was like in 1985.
Shit, that's 35 years ago.
I don't remember.
I can't remember
what happened yesterday,
let alone what happened
35 years ago.
Well, I just remember
bits and pieces.
I can tell you that
at that time,
we were all friends.
Deb Shelden, Cliff Shelden,
Thomas Winslow, Joseph White,
JoAnn Taylor.
We would run around and just
raised a little hell.
You know,
got in a little trouble
with, you know, like,
disturbing the peace,
stuff like that.
But when you first meet people
and you're around them
for a little while,
you don't know
what they're capable of.
My name wasn't even brought up
in this whole thing
until Deb Shelden was arrested.
I got arrested on my birthday
in '89.
We were gonna have
a birthday party for me.
I'm the only one
that didn't show up.
Cops came from everywhere.
Burdette Searcey was the one
doing most of the talking.
He told me to hold my hands up.
I called them all assholes,
straight up.
I mean, if you come at me
with an asshole demeanor,
I'm gonna come back at you
with an asshole demeanor.
James Dean was
a difficult person
to interview.
Really got very little,
if nothing, out of him.
He was just hard to deal with.
I think Mr. Schmeling was
struggling dealing with him.
My initial impression
of James
particularly intelligent.
I went through my drill
that I go through
with all the criminal clients.
"James, if you did this,
you need to tell me.
"It's confidential.
I won't tell anybody else.
"But it'll be helpful to me
"to know
whether you were involved
in this case or not."
I kept telling him,
"Well, just tell them
to put me
on a lie detector test."
I said,
"I'll prove I didn't do this."
You know, no harm, no foul.
I'm gonna believe my client
up until the point in time
where I have
some fairly good, solid facts
that cause me
to disbelieve him.
The county attorney
Richard Smith
agreed to have James Dean
undergo
a polygraph examination.
It would have been
an easy slam dunk
if he'd passed the polygraph.
But after I had reviewed
the report,
I was disappointed
that James had not passed
the test cleanly.
They said,
"Well, you failed miserably."
And, yeah, that didn't go good.
And they said, "You need
to tell us what happened.
That way, we can keep you
out of the electric chair."
James was not
a model prisoner.
James Dean, he was needy.
He kept the jail staff
pretty hopping,
and I think
he liked to do that.
He wanted attention
from the jail staff,
from whomever.
He'd be yelling and cussing.
It was to the point
where you didn't even want
to go back there
'cause he was so obnoxious.
At some point in time,
I got a phone call
from the jail
saying that they're having
a lot of problems
with James Dean.
Would it be okay for Doc Price
to go over there
and kind of calm him down?
And I said yes.
Dr. Wayne Price
donated many years
to the Beatrice
Police Department
and the Gage County
Sheriff's Department
as our department's
psychologist.
Pretty much anything
that dealt
with mental health issues,
Dr. Price was involved in.
Not there to tell us
what to do
but maybe tell us why things
are the way they are.
He made sure that we knew
we were on the right track.
If you personally thought
that somebody
was going downhill
or was struggling
with something,
Dr. Price, he could deescalate
a situation.
Mr. Dean was
a very agitated, very loud,
noncompliant inmate.
He was yelling, screaming,
crying,
refusing orders
of a correction officer.
This went on periodically.
Sometimes the sheriff
would call Price
and have Price come over
in the evening and talk to him.
I defused Mr. Dean
several times in the jail
when he had gotten
in a panicked state,
and we would talk
for maybe five to ten minutes.
And I said if he'd just relax,
he'd feel better,
he'd settle down,
and I'd leave.
At this point in time,
we still had James saying,
"No, no, I wasn't there."
And then one day,
he called my office.
He says,
"You gotta come down."
He says,
"I just remembered something,
and I think it's important."
He says, "I remember
how we were all standing
at the door when JoAnn Taylor
knocked on the door."
I said, "Oh? You were there?"
"Yeah, I was."
At that point,
I made the statement
about what was done
and how it was done
I conducted another
interview of James Dean.
James Dean said he was there.
He didn't get involved,
but he didn't know what to do.
He'd become paranoid.
He went to the building's
electrical box
and pulled the fuses.
And we knew that.
We knew in the crime scene,
there was specific things
that had to have answers to.
Someone pulled the lights out.
James Dean didn't only
implicate himself
but also came up
with another person
directly involved
in the Helen Wilson homicide.
And her name
was Kathy Gonzalez.
Her apartment
was directly above
Helen Wilson's apartment,
and she was acquaintances
with Joseph White.
I found out Kathy Gonzalez,
while they were rassling
with Helen Wilson,
got kicked in the nose,
and she got a bloody nose.
Debbie Shelden
noticed Kathy Gonzalez
had a bloody nose
and a washcloth
trying to stop the bleeding.
Also, there was a bloody bra
that was found in the dumpster
outside
of the apartment building.
Kathy Gonzalez
said it was hers.
She had throwed it
in the dumpster.
The initial investigation
conducted by the police
say we're looking for B blood.
Kathy Gonzalez had B blood.
Pretty good information.
Pretty good evidence.
So it all kinda is gathered in,
and it's piecing together.
Okay, here we go.
Everybody does it together.
Here we go. Tossing it to Josh.
Josh to Grant.
Grant to Mason.
And hands and knees.
And stop. Okay, that's it.
Grab a chair.
Let's make a circle.
So we gotta
pass out scripts, then.
This is the material
we've put together so far.
Assiduously,
it's tried to be something
that actually comes
from the public record.
But it also needs to come
from all of you.
Theater is not reality.
It is distilled life,
and sometimes what's distilled
is actually able
to penetrate in ways
that the chaos of life cannot.
- Yes!
- Hear, hear.
We're gonna do an exercise
looking
at the interrogation scenes.
No right or wrong,
but just talk to each other.
Tom.
You volunteered to speak to me,
right?
- Yeah.
- Have we ever spoken before?
- Few times.
- And what happened then?
Okay, I lied.
I said I had
nothing to do with it.
I wasn't there.
Okay, now, what exactly
did you lie about?
Scene seven,
Joe White's interrogation.
Did you ever go
to Helen Wilson's apartment?
I already explained to you,
I didn't know her.
And I did not even go
to that building
except the couple of nights
that I stayed with a girl
named Kathy Gonzalez.
Scene six,
JoAnn Taylor's interrogation.
JoAnn, how is it that you can
remember some things
but not others?
It's the way my mind is.
It's, like, fucked up,
literally.
My psychologist Dr. Price
will tell you.
Nice, freeze.
Anybody have any reactions
or thoughts?
I was trying really hard to,
like, try to do justice
to maybe what
their perspectives were,
and it was really hard for me.
But I think it was
a really cool exercise to do.
It definitely lays bare
our preconceptions
- about a lot of these people.
- Mm-hmm.
Which, like, for me
is kinda the meaning
of the whole project
is that this story
is, at this point,
constructed of a lot different
little subjective truths.
You gotta remember,
it's a true story.
It's not gonna be like
regular theater that we do
where in the end,
there's laughing, dancing,
songs, and smiles,
because it's not gonna end
that way.
So we're gonna go back to 1989.
You've solved the case.
Can you tell us what happened
to Helen Wilson that night?
At approximately 9:00
in the evening,
February 5, 1985,
Joseph White, JoAnn Taylor,
James Dean, Debbie Shelden,
and Tom Winslow
were driven
to the apartment building
where Helen Wilson resided.
They parked behind
And entered through
what is the east door.
We went upstairs.
First level.
To another door.
And do you recall the
number of that apartment?
Four.
They knocked on the door.
Helen Wilson
recognized Debbie.
She opened the door,
and at that time, everybody
pushed through the door,
knocking her backwards.
They took all their weight and stuff,
and pushed that way with their hands.
money from her.
What was Mrs. Wilson doing?
She was struggling.
The lady started for the phone,
pushed her out of way of the phone.
shut off.
She was shoved
into her bedroom
by Joseph White.
Tom went in to assist.
It was scary.
Was it a violent battle?
It was gross.
At that point in time,
James Dean got scared.
He run outside
the apartment building.
I tried to help her.
I didn't get close enough to her,
because I got pushed by Joseph White.
I had blood on the back of my head.
Do you remember
the fight in the bedroom?
The blood on the sheets,
the blood on the walls?
Yeah.
And he had a knife in his hand.
What kind of knife
did he have in his hand?
It wasn't a real big one.
at the throat.
She was screaming,
and I told him to quit hurting her.
To let her go, she hadn't
done anything wrong.
Kathy Gonzalez
tried to help
and was knocked backwards.
But she never did call
the police.
Ultimately, Helen Wilson
was drug out of her bedroom.
I remember Lobo struggling
with her in the living room.
She said something to him,
and he started hitting her.
And he kept telling me,
she's got it coming.
Lobo raped her.
How did he rape her?
I can see him on top.
And she's got a glassy look to her face,
her coloring's not right.
He continued until he was done
raping her.
And then
he moved positions.
The other boy raped her.
She was sexually assaulted
by Joseph White
and Tom Winslow.
JoAnn picked the pillow up.
We got a cushion.
Like from a chair, couch or something.
She was trying to smother her.
At some point, Helen Wilson
quit struggling and was not
fighting anymore.
I worked this case.
I know the facts.
I dealt with these people.
They're guilty.
When you are talking
to all these people,
you know
they're telling the truth,
when they're all telling you
the same thing,
you corroborate it
with your other information.
Independent corroborative
testimony.
That's what the whole case
hinges on.
But humans lie.
That's a point.
I remember being
in the cell,
feeling helpless.
They would say,
"You might as well
"tell the truth now,
because we already have
"this person's statement,
this person's statement,
"and they all told exactly
what you did
and how you did it."
I think I would've kept
my mouth shut.