The Problem with Jon Stewart (2021) s01e04 Episode Script
The Problem with Guns
-[Stewart] Check, check.
-[Chelsea] Good?
-[Stewart] Microphone check, one, two.
-[Chelsea] We're good. Okay.
I saw a video of a Krav Maga woman.
Attackers came at her,
she was like… [imitates grunting]
…and they were like, "Krav Maga."
I was like,
"I gotta fucking take that class."
-So I signed up for a Krav Maga class.
-[woman gasps]
And what I learned is that
I've got about seven minutes before I die.
[all laughing]
Which is actually a long time.
It's like-- [stammers]
At minute seven, I was like…
[imitates sighing]
…I guess they can just--
Just do what you wanna do.
-[Chelsea] Um…
-[woman] You have Atticus.
This dog isn't doing anything.
[laughing]
[Stewart] Atticus and I
have been taking a Krav Maga class.
[laughing]
Little paws. [whooshes]
[laughter continues]
[audience cheering]
My goodness.
Oh, my goodness!
[cheering continues]
Welcome.
Let's dive into the program.
Tonight…
[cheering ends]
…we're gonna be talking
about something we all know,
but we cannot seem to admit.
America has lost the war on guns.
It's over, people.
[scoffs] What, you-- you don't know that?
[audience chuckles]
We've lost.
How do I know we've lost? Take a look.
Knoxville police have an
officer-involved shooting on their hands.
This is a look at the scene earlier today.
Oh, this is live,
so they are still, um, this--
Ah, gotcha. Okay.
It's the-- [chuckles]
I forgot about the other shooting.
-[stammering, laughing]
-[audience laughs]
"I was talking about that shooting,
but it's the other shooting."
That is the amount of carnage
the newscasters are forced to narrate
on a daily basis.
An amount where it's possible to forget
an entire other mass shooting.
"We are live with the shooting, not--
Oh, right, the other fucking shooting."
[audience chuckles]
It's like when you can't find your glasses
and they've been on your head
the whole time.
You think to yourself like, "Ah, fuck!"
[audience chuckles]
Look, this is an easy mistake to make
when we average
about 12 mass shootings a week.
And you know what might help that?
We need to arm our teachers.
-[audience chuckles]
-Yes.
The solution to school shootings
is apparently strapping up
Mr. Langdon from chemistry.
[audience laughs]
Well, that only takes care
of school shootings.
What if a shooting happens in a church?
People in church should have guns.
[audience laughs]
Amen?
[audience laughs]
Are there any other professionals
whose jobs have nothing to do with guns
or crime that need guns?
I'd say 100%
of our pilots ought to be armed.
[audience chuckles]
A hundred percent of our pilots.
Let me tell you something.
That fucking goose wouldn't have dared
taken down Captain Sully's plane…
[audience laughs]
…if it knew he was packing.
"I'm tired
of these motherfucking unarmed pilots
on these motherfucking planes."
[audience laughs]
I haven't-- Is that quote still relevant?
-Can I still--
-[audience laughs louder]
Is that even useful that quote?
So, yes.
We've lost the war on guns.
Personally,
I knew it was over after Sandy Hook.
We had a chance to pick guns
or kindergartners, and…
we went with guns.
There are 393 million guns in America,
and I don't want to be judgy,
but I think it's gotten absurd.
[male voice] Hunting season has arrived.
-Diamond hunting season that is.
-[gunshots fired]
If you have your sights set on this,
you can get this free
from Lee Ann's Fine Jewelry.
[audience laughing]
[audience laughs louder]
-Every kill begins with K ♪
-[audience laughs]
So here-- Oh.
[audience applauds]
I've really missed that.
[audience laughs]
So here's the deal.
The problem with guns
is that there's too many of them.
And while research clearly shows
mo guns mo deaths,
let's defer to the victors in this war.
Mr. NRA,
do you have any thoughts
on how the rest of us could die less?
Lean in. Listen to me now.
-Go on.
-[audience laughs]
And never forget these words…
-Spit it out.
-[audience laughs]
To stop a bad guy with a gun,
it takes a good guy with a gun.
-[softly] Yes.
-[audience chuckles]
Why didn't I think of that?
-Shoot-outs.
-[audience chuckles]
One question very quickly:
How can you tell who's a good guy?
[stammers] You know what?
Maybe, I guess, just ask them.
I'm sure people
are generally honest about that.
-I was a good guy on the street.
-[audience laughs]
I'm sure when Bruce gets here,
he'll tell you I was always a good guy.
[audience laughs]
O.J. gets a gun.
[audience laughs]
That's probably fine. [chuckles]
Not his weapon of choice… [chuckles]
…allegedly.
-[audience groans]
-You know--
[audience laughs]
-Are you taking O.J.'s side?
-[audience laughs]
Did that really just happen?
[chuckles]
O.J. knife joke and they're like,
"Hey, buddy."
[audience laughs]
"He's paid his dues."
[laughs]
You know what? Actually, they're right.
Doesn't make sense.
You know what's probably better?
Uh, don't let somebody tell you
themselves.
They're probably gonna lie. References.
'Cause everyone's gonna say
they're a good guy.
Maybe you know if a guy is good
if a different good guy gives him a vouch.
There's a guy I'd like to really thank
here that people don't thank enough,
but there's a kindly,
wonderful, gentle man,
um, that we all deeply love.
Uh, his name is Harvey Weinstein.
[audience gasping, laughing]
Harvey Weinstein gets a gun.
You know what? This isn't gonna work.
We're not gonna be able
to define good guys,
so let's just focus on maybe keeping
guns away from bad guys.
Like terrorists. They shouldn't have guns.
A loophole in federal gun laws
allows suspected terrorists
to buy guns here in the US,
and they have.
What the fuck?
If you're on the terrorist watch list,
you can have a gun?
Okay.
What about registered sex offenders?
Turns out sex offenders
apparently also need guns.
So, we obviously can't agree
on who the good guys are,
and we can't seem to agree
on who the bad guys are.
So what are we supposed to do here?
It's not a sci-fi Tom Cruise movie where
we have some magical premonition
of which bad guys are about
to commit a violent crime
and can intervene in the crime
before it's too late.
Or is it?
It appears a domestic dispute
led to the massacre at a Texas church
that left at least 26 people dead.
The gunman, Devin Kelley,
had a history of domestic violence.
The GOP shooting at the baseball diamond--
He had a history of domestic violence.
Reports of domestic abuse,
domestic violence.
…domestic violence complaints against him…
…and an allegation of domestic violence.
…history of domestic violence…
Six arrests for domestic violence.
-…domestic violence…
-…domestic violence…
Twenty years old, and already has
a domestic violence history.
Domestic violence offenders.
It turns out domestic violence
is a predictor for gun violence.
In fact, there's a study that suggests,
"A felony domestic violence conviction
is the single greatest predictor
of future violent crime among men."
This is our sci-fi movie fix.
'Cause if we simply kept guns away
from domestic violence offenders,
we could potentially stop
60% of mass shootings.
Thirty percent of child firearm deaths.
More than 50% of women--
Sixty-five percent. Seventy-five--
[stammers] Okay, I'm sorry. Fuckload.
[audience laughs]
Every 14 hours an American woman
is shot dead by an intimate partner.
And you might not care about any of that.
And if you're the type of person
who doesn't care about any of that,
I do think I know an area
that may speak to you more.
Two police officers shot and killed
responding to a domestic violence call.
A rookie police officer was gunned down
responding to a domestic violence call.
…shot and killed early this morning
responding to a domestic violence call.
…shot and killed while responding
to a domestic violence call.
…responding to a domestic violence call.
…shot and killed in the line of duty.
They were reportedly responding
to a domestic violence call.
It turns out removing guns
from domestic violence offenders
also backs the blue.
Between 2015 and 2016,
domestic dispute calls
made up 41% of all fatal police calls.
For police, domestic violence calls
are the single most dangerous calls
that they respond to.
So why are we letting
these wife-beating cop killers
get away with literal mass murder?
And why is the Lifetime channel
the only network
covering this phenomenon 24 hours a day?
[audience laughing]
Oh, Tiffani Amber Thiessen,
I hope you get out.
[audience laughing]
You guys saw that one too, right?
It was-- you know.
It's entertaining, but I saw it coming.
We treat domestic violence
like it's a tampon commercial.
"Ignore the blood.
Pay attention to the dancing women
in the white shorts.
They're smiling. It's springtime.
Everything's fine!"
[audience laughs]
By the way, the law already says
domestic violence offenders
can't have guns.
If we just enforced that law,
we would prevent
other types of gun violence,
the kind that actually makes the news.
It's not a solution, but it's a real
harm reduction model for gun violence.
Unless, of course, uh…
Mr. NRA, you have
a better solution on the table?
Arm America's women.
Uh, go fuck yourself.
[audience laughing]
-[beep]
-[projector clicking]
Hey, guys. It's your old pal
Uncle Glock here,
and I want to talk to you about safety,
and the scourge that is domestic violence.
Did you know because
of the curse of domestic violence,
you could lose custody… of me?
Every day, because of the evils
of our judicial overlords,
countless innocent guns are in jeopardy.
Never again will they shoot a bullet
into the sky just for funsies.
They'll never get pulled out at a party
to impress a cool new friend.
Some of these guns will never get to be
in a prom photo with your daughter's date.
So I beg you,
the next time your significant other
just won't fucking listen,
I'm telling you, take a breath.
Just fucking take--
Just calm the fuck down!
For the guns.
Can't you think of the guns?
[fanfare plays]
[gunshot]
[Chelsea] This is my dream episode
because, uh, because I didn't like--
because I lived it. 'Cause I lived it.
When we read the stats, I'm always like,
"Hmm, that's me." [chuckles]
Like I'm the statistic.
But the other really important thing
around gun violence and domestic violence
is that people are always--
There's, like, shame and silence,
and so then, nothing can move forward.
You can't get the proper statistics,
and so the only way to combat that
is to talk about it,
make hot content about it,
-and…
-Hot content, baby!
-[woman] …that's right!
-[laughing]
And make jokes about it.
[audience applauds]
Okay. Welcome back.
We're gonna begin our discussion
with great news.
Congress has passed a bipartisan law
that prevents domestic violence offenders
from having guns.
The bad news is
it hasn't been updated since 1996
and it contains dangerous loopholes.
Not only that, but it's often
up to state and local communities
to enforce these existing laws,
which isn't always happening.
And to help understand why,
we're going to have, joining us today,
April Ross.
She is a survivor, attorney,
and domestic violence and firearms
advocate.
And Janet Paulsen, also a survivor
and an advocate who came to know April
when they were both
in a physical rehab center.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for joining us.
[audience applauding]
Uh…
April.
Uh, tell us a little bit about your story
and how you came to be an advocate,
uh, for this kind of legislation.
I met my, uh, husband, uh,
when I was in high school.
We dated off and on for roughly 15 years.
Um…
I mean, he was always unfaithful.
He was always with multiple women.
So January 2014, I moved out.
I moved in with my parents.
He always told me once we got married
that there was only one way
out of a marriage,
and that was in the grave.
-He had told you that?
-Yes, many times.
It made me nervous enough that I went
to work and I told our investigator,
the paralegal, and one of the attorneys
that was working on the-- the trial team
that I was working on at the time.
They then suggested that I go
and get a temporary protective order.
And I thought about it,
but I decided against it.
As a person who had helped
many, uh, victims and survivors
get protective orders over the years,
I thought I knew
what domestic violence was.
He wasn't physically abusing me.
But there was financial abuse,
psychological and emotional abuse.
-Right.
-But…
He pretended to cooperate with me.
He was gonna get the house.
Um, he was gonna get
half of our joint account.
Uh, and we didn't have any children.
And you don't feel a sense
of impending danger.
-You don't feel, uh, doom.
-Not immediately.
No, not immediately.
The thing about relationships is that--
Even domestic abuse relationships,
they start in love.
So it's really hard to
reach the conclusion
that it will end in death--
in violent death.
Most women who are killed
or almost killed by their abusers
never see it coming.
You can't see that coming.
For me, um…
I was taking a friend on an errand,
and I was dropping that friend off
at home before I headed to work.
And I was looking down for a moment,
and then I looked over
in the passenger seat to say something,
and before I could open my mouth,
his body was right there in the window
outside the car.
He didn't look down. I never saw his face.
I just saw his torso.
And, um, before I could blink, really,
and think of the next move,
his hand was coming up,
and I barely even saw the gun
before it went off.
I just remember the pop
and the smell of-- the burning smell
and every-- like, my head ringing.
I got shot in the jaw through and through.
Um, I think I threw my arm up,
and a bullet went through my forearm.
And, uh, I think I slumped over
at that point.
And another bullet went into my back,
and that's the bullet that
paralyzed me from the chest down.
He believed I was dead, and I think--
You know, I guess I didn't have
the strength to stay conscious,
but that's what saved my life.
Because if he thought I was still alive,
he would have kept shooting.
That's, uh,
incredible in how, like you say,
something that begins in love
has such, you know,
violent anger behind it.
Uh, Janet, your story is
unfortunately all too similar,
but also with very different--
-You saw this coming down a highway.
-Yeah.
I knew that I was going to pay a price
to divorce him.
I had been married 15 years and, um--
Two children, identical twin boys.
And, um, there were some
mental health issues.
He had terrible mood swings.
He was always getting into
shouting matches with people.
Um, I also-- Like April,
I wasn't physically abused.
You know, that's such a misconception.
For me it was emotional abuse,
sexual abuse and psychological abuse.
And alcohol use really just
made those issues even worse.
And, um, it came to a point where my boys,
who were 13 at the time,
came to me and they said that he was
drinking in the car with them.
You know, so I went to him
and I said, "Look.
It's time for us to get a divorce."
And he looked at me and he said,
"Why don't you go upstairs
and get the boys
and try and leave
and see what happens to you?"
I was like, "You're-- You're scaring me.
Why are-- Why are you saying that?"
And he was like, "No. Go ahead. Try.
See what happens to you."
The police and my attorney…
[sighs] …told me I needed to get
a temporary protective order.
Right.
Now, he was a huge gun enthusiast.
There were 74 firearms in my house.
-[Stewart] Seventy-four?
-Yes.
[audience murmuring]
Most of them were locked
in two big gun safes.
But he liked to carry,
so he always had one on his ankle.
There was one in his vehicle,
one in his desk drawer.
And, um…
It was granted.
I was granted that protective order.
And they would come and take the guns?
All but one.
All but one?
They let him leave
with the firearm in his truck.
Yeah, she told me she couldn't get it.
It was a gray area.
He shot me with it five days later.
He-- He ambushed me.
He was hiding on the side of the house
with a gun holster,
a Smith and Wesson 9 millimeter,
and an extra box of ammunition.
He thought I was at football practice
with my father and the boys,
which we were.
He was waiting on all of us.
I just happened to come home early,
by myself,
'cause I had groceries in the car.
I was shot six times
with the 9 millimeter.
He shattered my right femur.
He shattered my left knee.
I have a through and through in my thigh.
I have a through and through
in my abdomen.
He took out a third of my right lung.
And then the last shot
hit my L2 vertebrae.
One of the things that feels the hardest
when-- when you're all discussing it
is the concern that judges seem to have
for the abuser
and the concern law enforcement
seems to have for the gun.
And it feels like more steps are taken
to make sure that
the abuser's due process isn't violated,
and their concern is,
"Can't get the gun in the car.
That's the gun.
-I don't want to overstep my gun getting."
-[Ross] Right.
Family violence
and domestic violence offenses
are classified as misdemeanors.
And when people hear
the term "misdemeanor,"
they think nonserious crime.
We need to get to point where
law enforcement doesn't have
that kind of hesitancy or
lackadaisical, um, attitude about--
He should have been taken in
for the aggravated stalking,
-which would have been a felony.
-[Stewart] Right.
And he wouldn't have gotten bail.
He wouldn't have bonded out.
And he wouldn't have been able to,
four days later, shoot her.
So, I want to let the audience know,
in the dressing room,
-your friend is back there.
-Yeah.
-And she's just lost her daughter.
-Yeah.
-To domestic violence.
-Yes.
I thought the two of you had met
in some kind of support group,
and she said, "Oh, no.
We've been friends since we were kids.
I live right up the street."
Her beautiful daughter was shot
and killed by her boyfriend
when she was 19 years old.
To my mind,
this is an unseen and unheard epidemic.
And so we're gonna come back
and talk a little bit
about how we gain control of it.
-Yeah.
-All right, we'll be right back.
[audience applauding]
So the Lautenberg Amendment
prohibits anyone in this country,
regardless of where they live,
who has been convicted
of a misdemeanor crime
of domestic violence
from purchasing a firearm
or possessing a firearm.
The federal law, however, does not require
or even speak to removing firearms.
There's no federal reference to that.
What people, from professionals
to the general public,
could not wrap their heads around are
the steps and the actual logistical pieces
that need to happen.
Everyone agreed, yes,
this person should no longer have a gun.
We agree on that.
But how it actually gets done,
they just couldn't fathom it.
Often, whether you are safe
depends on where you live,
what law is in place in your state,
and if you're in a county
that will implement it.
One of the most impactful statements
that I have heard is--
has been between
one police chief to another.
When one chief was saying,
"Where do I put all of these guns?
There's gonna be hundreds of guns.
Where are we gonna put them?"
And the other chief just simply said,
"The same place you put it
after he kills her with it."
[audience applauding]
We're talking with
April Ross and Janet Paulsen.
So, what allowed you guys to take this
trauma and turn it into activism
and start to advocate for victims?
How did this come about for you?
[Ross] For me, I, um…
Almost instantly, the news was clamoring
to get to me when they found his body.
-[Stewart] He killed himself.
-Right.
He killed himself a few hours later.
And so the victim-blaming starts
immediately.
"She must have done something."
Oh, and for me, oh, heaven forbid
there was a man in my car,
you know, so,
"She must have been cheating."
You know, "She was
at another man's house," you know, so…
And it's almost that
"she got what she deserved"
is the underlining message.
I was getting furious,
and finally I decided to reach out
to a reporter friend of mine
and give an interview.
What slowly starts to happen is,
you meet one person,
and then you meet another,
sort of how Janet and I got connected.
I was sent to her, um, hospital room
as her peer support mentor,
and, you know, I mentioned to her that
I was slowly starting to do some advocacy,
and I was trying to find a way
to make a solution
and bring some change
so that this doesn't keep happening,
and, "Do you want to do it too,"
and she said, "Yeah, I do."
I said, "I don't know what
we're gonna do, but we'll figure it out."
-Right.
-"When I figure it out, I'll call you."
-Yeah. Yeah.
-[audience laughing]
-You proposed legislation…
-[Paulsen] We did.
…and it was not passed.
In Georgia, we don't comply
with federal gun laws.
So if you're under a protective order,
or you have a domestic violence
misdemeanor or felony,
you've lost your rights to firearms.
But some counties in Georgia do.
-I happen to live in one that did.
-That complies?
All we asked for
was for the state of Georgia
-to comply with the federal law. Um…
-Right.
And it's not just Georgia, by the way.
This is not to make it seem like,
"Oh, yeah, in Georgia,
they got a real problem down there."
-No, no, no.
-Like, this is everywhere.
[Paulsen] Yeah.
[Stewart] What's the way to build this
so that women can feel safer
getting out of these relationships?
An officer had me
hold up a piece of paper,
and he said, "Okay, that piece of paper
is your protective order,"
and then he took a pen,
and he jabbed through the paper
while I was holding it,
and he said, "That's a bullet.
You need to arm yourself."
So, I went and I applied
for a concealed carry permit.
I, uh, own a firearm,
and I was trained, uh, by a certified
gun instructor on how to use it.
-[Stewart] Right.
-And it actually, kind of,
helped a little bit with my PTSD.
Instead of me looking, you know,
at the barrel of the gun, you know.
That image kind of changed.
But, you know, that's not the answer.
We can't solve this problem
at the shoot-out level.
-[both] No.
-The idea that if your husband
had come in with a weapon
and shot you six times,
that you could have outgunned him
seems ludicrous.
-It's ludicrous.
-And if the police--
the place you're going to
for protection is telling you,
"We are deputizing you."
[both scoff]
That's giving up.
In the prosecutor's office I worked in,
with the investigators interacting
with police officers every day,
there was not a true understanding
about domestic violence.
They only see it when you get
somebody black-and-blue in the face.
And that is not
what domestic violence looks like.
It looks like a person
walking down the street.
You don't need to see a person bruised up
to be able to agree or to acknowledge
that they're in an abusive relationship,
or that they're in danger.
And so, officers need intensive
domestic violence training
as a part of the police academies.
They need to understand
cultural dynamics, um…
because everybody that they go to
for a call isn't gonna look like them,
isn't gonna have the same
life experiences and background as them.
So they need to understand,
so that they respect the person who called
enough to take every call seriously.
Stop worrying about if the person's
gonna get back in that relationship.
On average, it takes a woman nine times
of trying to leave
before they successfully leave
a relationship.
And I can tell you, I'm above average
because I was--
It took me a whole lot more than nine,
you know,
-before I successfully left that marriage.
-I took two.
It's even also to look at--
If you look at a harm reduction model.
So let's say they overstep
on civil liberties, which, as we know,
the police are not, uh, loath to do
in other situations, you know.
They'll pull people over.
They'll do all kinds of things.
Worse things worse, if it wasn't really
a situation that was warranted,
you lose custody of your gun for a month.
-Right.
-But if not, a life is saved.
So how is that even in question?
The argument you get a lot of times is,
if you start here
with pulling back gun rights,
or if you take these guns away
in this situation,
then you'll just come up
with another situation
-where you can take guns.
-[Paulsen] Yeah.
And then another. It's the--
And then they argue
it's the slippery slope.
It's not a slippery slope.
We're already at the bottom of the hill.
[Paulsen] Yeah.
So what's next for the dynamic duo?
We have received a federal grant
to build a family justice center.
That's where you
fill out your police report.
-Childcare is there, uh, legal advisers…
-[Stewart] Mm-hmm.
…therapists. All in one place.
Janet, like she mentioned earlier,
lives in a community
that has decided
to take guns away from people
when they get a protective order
against them.
-Right.
-That didn't just happen on its own.
Even though I agree we need the state law,
community-level changes
are a good way to start.
Well, you guys are amazing.
And I really appreciate you being here
and talking about it.
I have a feeling you're gonna make
some enormous progress.
-Hope so. Thank you.
-Thank you so much. All right.
[audience applauding]
April Ross. Janet Paulsen.
We'll be right back after this.
Um, thank you.
You have a lot of the officers
that don't believe
in taking guns away from people,
and then you have to point out,
well, more officers were killed
by DV perpetrators than any other group.
You are not gonna see
a bunch of ATF agents, you know,
running around
collecting guns on protection orders.
They're usually looking
for bigger fish to catch.
They're issuing protective orders
but they're not taking the firearms.
The relinquishment's not happening.
I think the biggest barrier
is roadblocks we have mentally
with each individual person.
So we drafted
a mandatory divestiture process,
and believe it or not, in a red state,
they voted, and it was 96 to 0.
Absolutely no opposition at all.
I was-- I was floored.
You know, we're doing it here,
in little old Lafourche,
south Louisiana,
where everybody has firearms.
Changing police culture
is like bending granite.
I mean, you need heat, time and pressure.
And you can do it
with all three of those things.
[Stewart] The federal law is that
if you have a protection order
or a restraining order, or you've been
convicted of domestic violence,
you cannot own a firearm.
True. Or ammunition.
Or ammunition.
But there doesn't seem to be
a dissemination of that
into local and state-level enforcement.
That doesn't serve their interests.
Why is law enforcement not taking the lead
and weeding out bad guys with guns?
Um, I would say that, um,
a lot of the obstacles are cultural.
As cops, we're human beings
who bring all of our biases to the job.
So if we're a conservative white male
and a member of the NRA,
you're already in the headspace
that gun laws are bad,
everyone needs a gun,
and good guys will prevail.
There's a certain portion
of that going on.
But I would say it's not, you know--
I think we have a tendency to say, like,
"Okay, a conservative white man,"
but those aren't the only people
that dismiss women's concerns.
It's a problem in rural communities,
it's a problem in cities,
it's a problem in suburbs,
and it's all of the same dynamic.
I agree with you.
I mean, I agree with
how defeating this is.
-Right.
-And we have to also understand,
like, who are the actors
making the decision?
We know. There have been
studies doi-- done
that show that for law enforcement
themselves, as people,
there's higher incidence of domestic
violence in their own homes.
People don't wanna say, like,
"Hey, I had a bad situation
in my home that was violent."
-Right.
-"And I'm worried, like,
that person's mad at me, and they
could use this law to take away my gun,
and if that happens, I lose my job."
Like there are all these
other motivations going on.
-Right.
-There's also this, sort of,
throwing their hands up, saying, like,
"Gun violence is a problem
that can't be stopped."
Really?
It's just gonna happen.
It's part of the cost of doing business,
no laws are gonna prevent criminals
from getting guns.
Even if I took that gun,
that guy could have gone out and bought
another one just that day, or built one.
-Like, there's this frustration, like--
-But then why have any laws?
Drunk driving was a problem,
so we created programs
against drunk driving,
and the police would set up
drunk-driving checks
on the streets, right?
And you could make the argument,
"Well, that's a violation
of the Fourth Amendment."
They did make the argument and,
you know, it was controversial,
but it passed through.
-So it's all about rewards, right?
-Right.
So the federal government would send money
to police departments through
probably transportation, um,
to pay for overtime
for those officers doing that.
But we decided, as a culture,
drunk driving is a problem.
Too many people are dying.
It's a problem we're willing
to commit to owning
and paying for to solve,
and there were incentives
-to be good at it.
-Right.
You got overtime, you're gonna be
given awards if you catch a lot of people.
I mean, there was like--
It was carrots everywhere.
Like, I think that's a model for success.
How do you de-escalate
law-enforcement resistance?
I think it's pretty clear now
that the federal approach
is probably not the one
that's going to be very effective.
We live in an environment where
we're not gonna pass federal laws.
All right, so fighting that fight,
even though that--
[laughing]
-I mean, we're not, so--
-I know.
-So like--
-It's a funny thing to say out loud.
We live in an environment--
Especially when your job
is trying to advocate,
and we do seem, to some degree,
able to throw money at problems.
Police are strapped in their budgets,
and so, if you can give funding
from the federal government
that's coming outside the normal
local mechanism,
and ask them
to do programs and priorities,
people do what they have
the resources to do.
And they don't need legislative, then,
approval because laws already exist.
We have plenty we can do
with the laws on the books now.
You know, the first thing I ask is
would you have taken the same action
as a law enforcement
if that woman was your sister?
-Right.
-Like, wait, can we personalize it?
And that's what we've got to encourage
police officers to do.
Do you think domestic violence, then,
is not taken as seriously
because the culture is sort of, uh,
trained to not believe women
or to dismiss women's concerns?
Because it-- it does seem like
if this were happening to men,
there'd be a far greater outcry.
I think that's a fair criticism.
-And until that culture is fixed…
-Mm-hmm.
…we will remain broken.
The International Association
of Chiefs of Police,
you're a part of that organization.
Yes, and I was
on their firearms committee.
Only 25 of this large-- this organization.
I had two terms.
I wrote most of their materials
about gun violence prevention.
The firearms committee is in charge of?
All firearms policy that IACP endorses.
And I've been on it--
-I worked there for years.
-Just out of curiosity,
-how many women were on that?
-One.
How many people are on it?
Twenty-five. One person of color.
This is--
-One person of color and one woman?
-Yes.
Writing the policy for the IACP
on firearms?
That-- That seems fair.
Yeah. And so, IACP is largely now
representing small-town police chiefs,
rural chiefs, major-city chiefs.
Has a very different look.
-And, yes, this is shocking.
-But it's clearly a constituency
-that could make a difference.
-Oh, yes.
If they came out tomorrow as--
as, "This is an important initiative
that we're gonna put
a good amount of resource and time to,"
that would be enormous.
Why is a domestic violence situation
not in and of itself
-probable cause to remove firearms?
-That's a perfect example
where an officer goes in
and takes that gun.
This person says, "You just
violated my Fourth Amendment rights.
I have a Second Amendment right to that--
you know, to keep that firearm,
and I have protections
against unlawful searches and seizures."
We had two people on the show.
A woman named April Ross
and a woman named Janet Paulsen.
Both were survivors of domestic violence.
Janet got a restraining order.
They came to collect her husband's guns.
There was one in the car. She said,
"Can you please get that one as well?"
They said, "We can't."
And he shot her with that one.
Mm-hmm. A lot of times,
these orders are very specific.
-They come from a judge.
-Right.
Particularly when it comes to
Second Amendment rights.
So they go in and an officer takes
that gun out of the car,
-they're gonna end up in legal jeopardy.
-Mm-hmm.
It's about a protecting them on--
against a civil suit.
So now, a-as a cop--
You know, Jon, what are they making?
-You know? $60,000 a year…
-[Stewart] Right.
…and now you're gonna bankrupt this cop
because they're trying to do
the right thing to keep somebody safe?
What that says is, their hands are tied
about enforcing laws that are on the books
because they fear a legal process
against them.
Does the will not exist to do it
because of that legal question?
-Eh…
-And does that play a role?
Well, I know at the executive level
it doesn't, you know?
At the line and staff level, I don't know.
Do you still believe that it's possible
to do this at a legislative level?
We need a federal standard.
We need them to come in and say,
"We're not federalizing police,
but we need a federal standard
that people can train to, can understand,
that's evidence-based,
that makes sense." Right?
But having those conversations
in those offices with people--
When you look at 'em and say--
They're just not hearing me.
-You know? It's extremely frustrating.
-Right.
Where would you attack it?
As someone who really knows it
from being a police chief at a local level
and also having a good overview of it.
What would you do?
The game changer
for law enforcement has been
those extreme risk protection orders.
Does that differ
from a temporary restraining order?
[stutters] A hundred percent.
-Temporary restraining order, right?
-Yeah.
They're-- You have to really--
That's a high bar to get to.
On an extreme risk protection order,
it's not a high bar,
because it's a temporary separation
of you from your firearms.
A woman can go in and say,
"My husband has been polishing his gun
-and I feel like I'm in jeopardy."
-That's it.
-"And I need this."
-Perfect.
-That's a great example. Exactly.
-That would do it.
Right now,
there's only 20 states that have it,
and the District of Columbia, right?
So we've still got, you know,
another 30 to go.
And then the judge, you know, will--
Would they be able to take the gun
from the car too?
Yeah, under extreme risk protection,
they can take 'em all.
I think part of the problem
with this issue is
yes, it impacts women,
but what was illumining for me
is that it disproportionately impacts
Black and brown women,
-indigenous women, and--
-[woman] Trans.
Trans women. Um, and I think
that's also part of the problem
that we need to actually talk about.
-That we don't talk about.
-[Susan] Black women are twice as likely
to be shot and killed
by an intimate partner than a white woman.
-Which is shocking to me.
-And insane.
[Chelsea] That's the other end. It's like,
do we not move on this issue
because it's a bunch
of dudes affecting it,
or is it because it's mostly affecting
Black and brown women?
-Yeah.
-[woman] Probably a combination of both.
-Probably a hot combo with both.
-[all laughing]
[audience laughs, claps]
Pah, pah, pah, pah ♪
Thank you! Thank you so much
for watching the program
while, I'm assuming,
scrolling Twitter on your phone.
I cannot wait to see all 2,000 comments
agreeing with everything we've said
here tonight.
-[audience laughs]
-And, for even more, we've got a podcast.
Listen and sing along.
You can learn more about how to
join the fight against domestic violence.
Subscribe to our newsletter
at theproblem.com/cheesedip.
And check out these organizations.
We shall see you… Uh, next time.
Have a good night. Bye.
[audience cheers]
We are going to go.
-I'm Niecy Nash.
-And I'm Thandiwe Newton.
And we're the stars of a new movie,
The Real Thelma and Louise.
The premise of this reboot is to make
a real-life version of the classic.
So first off, Thelma and Louise
are being played by two Black women.
Our characters go on the run
after Louise shoots
Thelma's abusive husband in self-defense.
Thelma and Louise make it all the way…
to the driveway before they are arrested.
It's a pretty short movie.
Mm-hmm. But, you know, fun romp.
We do kiss once.
Iconic.
-Catch The Real Thelma and Louise.
-[Nash] The original girls' trip.
Take your white boyfriend
and enjoy the silence on the ride home.
-[Chelsea] Good?
-[Stewart] Microphone check, one, two.
-[Chelsea] We're good. Okay.
I saw a video of a Krav Maga woman.
Attackers came at her,
she was like… [imitates grunting]
…and they were like, "Krav Maga."
I was like,
"I gotta fucking take that class."
-So I signed up for a Krav Maga class.
-[woman gasps]
And what I learned is that
I've got about seven minutes before I die.
[all laughing]
Which is actually a long time.
It's like-- [stammers]
At minute seven, I was like…
[imitates sighing]
…I guess they can just--
Just do what you wanna do.
-[Chelsea] Um…
-[woman] You have Atticus.
This dog isn't doing anything.
[laughing]
[Stewart] Atticus and I
have been taking a Krav Maga class.
[laughing]
Little paws. [whooshes]
[laughter continues]
[audience cheering]
My goodness.
Oh, my goodness!
[cheering continues]
Welcome.
Let's dive into the program.
Tonight…
[cheering ends]
…we're gonna be talking
about something we all know,
but we cannot seem to admit.
America has lost the war on guns.
It's over, people.
[scoffs] What, you-- you don't know that?
[audience chuckles]
We've lost.
How do I know we've lost? Take a look.
Knoxville police have an
officer-involved shooting on their hands.
This is a look at the scene earlier today.
Oh, this is live,
so they are still, um, this--
Ah, gotcha. Okay.
It's the-- [chuckles]
I forgot about the other shooting.
-[stammering, laughing]
-[audience laughs]
"I was talking about that shooting,
but it's the other shooting."
That is the amount of carnage
the newscasters are forced to narrate
on a daily basis.
An amount where it's possible to forget
an entire other mass shooting.
"We are live with the shooting, not--
Oh, right, the other fucking shooting."
[audience chuckles]
It's like when you can't find your glasses
and they've been on your head
the whole time.
You think to yourself like, "Ah, fuck!"
[audience chuckles]
Look, this is an easy mistake to make
when we average
about 12 mass shootings a week.
And you know what might help that?
We need to arm our teachers.
-[audience chuckles]
-Yes.
The solution to school shootings
is apparently strapping up
Mr. Langdon from chemistry.
[audience laughs]
Well, that only takes care
of school shootings.
What if a shooting happens in a church?
People in church should have guns.
[audience laughs]
Amen?
[audience laughs]
Are there any other professionals
whose jobs have nothing to do with guns
or crime that need guns?
I'd say 100%
of our pilots ought to be armed.
[audience chuckles]
A hundred percent of our pilots.
Let me tell you something.
That fucking goose wouldn't have dared
taken down Captain Sully's plane…
[audience laughs]
…if it knew he was packing.
"I'm tired
of these motherfucking unarmed pilots
on these motherfucking planes."
[audience laughs]
I haven't-- Is that quote still relevant?
-Can I still--
-[audience laughs louder]
Is that even useful that quote?
So, yes.
We've lost the war on guns.
Personally,
I knew it was over after Sandy Hook.
We had a chance to pick guns
or kindergartners, and…
we went with guns.
There are 393 million guns in America,
and I don't want to be judgy,
but I think it's gotten absurd.
[male voice] Hunting season has arrived.
-Diamond hunting season that is.
-[gunshots fired]
If you have your sights set on this,
you can get this free
from Lee Ann's Fine Jewelry.
[audience laughing]
[audience laughs louder]
-Every kill begins with K ♪
-[audience laughs]
So here-- Oh.
[audience applauds]
I've really missed that.
[audience laughs]
So here's the deal.
The problem with guns
is that there's too many of them.
And while research clearly shows
mo guns mo deaths,
let's defer to the victors in this war.
Mr. NRA,
do you have any thoughts
on how the rest of us could die less?
Lean in. Listen to me now.
-Go on.
-[audience laughs]
And never forget these words…
-Spit it out.
-[audience laughs]
To stop a bad guy with a gun,
it takes a good guy with a gun.
-[softly] Yes.
-[audience chuckles]
Why didn't I think of that?
-Shoot-outs.
-[audience chuckles]
One question very quickly:
How can you tell who's a good guy?
[stammers] You know what?
Maybe, I guess, just ask them.
I'm sure people
are generally honest about that.
-I was a good guy on the street.
-[audience laughs]
I'm sure when Bruce gets here,
he'll tell you I was always a good guy.
[audience laughs]
O.J. gets a gun.
[audience laughs]
That's probably fine. [chuckles]
Not his weapon of choice… [chuckles]
…allegedly.
-[audience groans]
-You know--
[audience laughs]
-Are you taking O.J.'s side?
-[audience laughs]
Did that really just happen?
[chuckles]
O.J. knife joke and they're like,
"Hey, buddy."
[audience laughs]
"He's paid his dues."
[laughs]
You know what? Actually, they're right.
Doesn't make sense.
You know what's probably better?
Uh, don't let somebody tell you
themselves.
They're probably gonna lie. References.
'Cause everyone's gonna say
they're a good guy.
Maybe you know if a guy is good
if a different good guy gives him a vouch.
There's a guy I'd like to really thank
here that people don't thank enough,
but there's a kindly,
wonderful, gentle man,
um, that we all deeply love.
Uh, his name is Harvey Weinstein.
[audience gasping, laughing]
Harvey Weinstein gets a gun.
You know what? This isn't gonna work.
We're not gonna be able
to define good guys,
so let's just focus on maybe keeping
guns away from bad guys.
Like terrorists. They shouldn't have guns.
A loophole in federal gun laws
allows suspected terrorists
to buy guns here in the US,
and they have.
What the fuck?
If you're on the terrorist watch list,
you can have a gun?
Okay.
What about registered sex offenders?
Turns out sex offenders
apparently also need guns.
So, we obviously can't agree
on who the good guys are,
and we can't seem to agree
on who the bad guys are.
So what are we supposed to do here?
It's not a sci-fi Tom Cruise movie where
we have some magical premonition
of which bad guys are about
to commit a violent crime
and can intervene in the crime
before it's too late.
Or is it?
It appears a domestic dispute
led to the massacre at a Texas church
that left at least 26 people dead.
The gunman, Devin Kelley,
had a history of domestic violence.
The GOP shooting at the baseball diamond--
He had a history of domestic violence.
Reports of domestic abuse,
domestic violence.
…domestic violence complaints against him…
…and an allegation of domestic violence.
…history of domestic violence…
Six arrests for domestic violence.
-…domestic violence…
-…domestic violence…
Twenty years old, and already has
a domestic violence history.
Domestic violence offenders.
It turns out domestic violence
is a predictor for gun violence.
In fact, there's a study that suggests,
"A felony domestic violence conviction
is the single greatest predictor
of future violent crime among men."
This is our sci-fi movie fix.
'Cause if we simply kept guns away
from domestic violence offenders,
we could potentially stop
60% of mass shootings.
Thirty percent of child firearm deaths.
More than 50% of women--
Sixty-five percent. Seventy-five--
[stammers] Okay, I'm sorry. Fuckload.
[audience laughs]
Every 14 hours an American woman
is shot dead by an intimate partner.
And you might not care about any of that.
And if you're the type of person
who doesn't care about any of that,
I do think I know an area
that may speak to you more.
Two police officers shot and killed
responding to a domestic violence call.
A rookie police officer was gunned down
responding to a domestic violence call.
…shot and killed early this morning
responding to a domestic violence call.
…shot and killed while responding
to a domestic violence call.
…responding to a domestic violence call.
…shot and killed in the line of duty.
They were reportedly responding
to a domestic violence call.
It turns out removing guns
from domestic violence offenders
also backs the blue.
Between 2015 and 2016,
domestic dispute calls
made up 41% of all fatal police calls.
For police, domestic violence calls
are the single most dangerous calls
that they respond to.
So why are we letting
these wife-beating cop killers
get away with literal mass murder?
And why is the Lifetime channel
the only network
covering this phenomenon 24 hours a day?
[audience laughing]
Oh, Tiffani Amber Thiessen,
I hope you get out.
[audience laughing]
You guys saw that one too, right?
It was-- you know.
It's entertaining, but I saw it coming.
We treat domestic violence
like it's a tampon commercial.
"Ignore the blood.
Pay attention to the dancing women
in the white shorts.
They're smiling. It's springtime.
Everything's fine!"
[audience laughs]
By the way, the law already says
domestic violence offenders
can't have guns.
If we just enforced that law,
we would prevent
other types of gun violence,
the kind that actually makes the news.
It's not a solution, but it's a real
harm reduction model for gun violence.
Unless, of course, uh…
Mr. NRA, you have
a better solution on the table?
Arm America's women.
Uh, go fuck yourself.
[audience laughing]
-[beep]
-[projector clicking]
Hey, guys. It's your old pal
Uncle Glock here,
and I want to talk to you about safety,
and the scourge that is domestic violence.
Did you know because
of the curse of domestic violence,
you could lose custody… of me?
Every day, because of the evils
of our judicial overlords,
countless innocent guns are in jeopardy.
Never again will they shoot a bullet
into the sky just for funsies.
They'll never get pulled out at a party
to impress a cool new friend.
Some of these guns will never get to be
in a prom photo with your daughter's date.
So I beg you,
the next time your significant other
just won't fucking listen,
I'm telling you, take a breath.
Just fucking take--
Just calm the fuck down!
For the guns.
Can't you think of the guns?
[fanfare plays]
[gunshot]
[Chelsea] This is my dream episode
because, uh, because I didn't like--
because I lived it. 'Cause I lived it.
When we read the stats, I'm always like,
"Hmm, that's me." [chuckles]
Like I'm the statistic.
But the other really important thing
around gun violence and domestic violence
is that people are always--
There's, like, shame and silence,
and so then, nothing can move forward.
You can't get the proper statistics,
and so the only way to combat that
is to talk about it,
make hot content about it,
-and…
-Hot content, baby!
-[woman] …that's right!
-[laughing]
And make jokes about it.
[audience applauds]
Okay. Welcome back.
We're gonna begin our discussion
with great news.
Congress has passed a bipartisan law
that prevents domestic violence offenders
from having guns.
The bad news is
it hasn't been updated since 1996
and it contains dangerous loopholes.
Not only that, but it's often
up to state and local communities
to enforce these existing laws,
which isn't always happening.
And to help understand why,
we're going to have, joining us today,
April Ross.
She is a survivor, attorney,
and domestic violence and firearms
advocate.
And Janet Paulsen, also a survivor
and an advocate who came to know April
when they were both
in a physical rehab center.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for joining us.
[audience applauding]
Uh…
April.
Uh, tell us a little bit about your story
and how you came to be an advocate,
uh, for this kind of legislation.
I met my, uh, husband, uh,
when I was in high school.
We dated off and on for roughly 15 years.
Um…
I mean, he was always unfaithful.
He was always with multiple women.
So January 2014, I moved out.
I moved in with my parents.
He always told me once we got married
that there was only one way
out of a marriage,
and that was in the grave.
-He had told you that?
-Yes, many times.
It made me nervous enough that I went
to work and I told our investigator,
the paralegal, and one of the attorneys
that was working on the-- the trial team
that I was working on at the time.
They then suggested that I go
and get a temporary protective order.
And I thought about it,
but I decided against it.
As a person who had helped
many, uh, victims and survivors
get protective orders over the years,
I thought I knew
what domestic violence was.
He wasn't physically abusing me.
But there was financial abuse,
psychological and emotional abuse.
-Right.
-But…
He pretended to cooperate with me.
He was gonna get the house.
Um, he was gonna get
half of our joint account.
Uh, and we didn't have any children.
And you don't feel a sense
of impending danger.
-You don't feel, uh, doom.
-Not immediately.
No, not immediately.
The thing about relationships is that--
Even domestic abuse relationships,
they start in love.
So it's really hard to
reach the conclusion
that it will end in death--
in violent death.
Most women who are killed
or almost killed by their abusers
never see it coming.
You can't see that coming.
For me, um…
I was taking a friend on an errand,
and I was dropping that friend off
at home before I headed to work.
And I was looking down for a moment,
and then I looked over
in the passenger seat to say something,
and before I could open my mouth,
his body was right there in the window
outside the car.
He didn't look down. I never saw his face.
I just saw his torso.
And, um, before I could blink, really,
and think of the next move,
his hand was coming up,
and I barely even saw the gun
before it went off.
I just remember the pop
and the smell of-- the burning smell
and every-- like, my head ringing.
I got shot in the jaw through and through.
Um, I think I threw my arm up,
and a bullet went through my forearm.
And, uh, I think I slumped over
at that point.
And another bullet went into my back,
and that's the bullet that
paralyzed me from the chest down.
He believed I was dead, and I think--
You know, I guess I didn't have
the strength to stay conscious,
but that's what saved my life.
Because if he thought I was still alive,
he would have kept shooting.
That's, uh,
incredible in how, like you say,
something that begins in love
has such, you know,
violent anger behind it.
Uh, Janet, your story is
unfortunately all too similar,
but also with very different--
-You saw this coming down a highway.
-Yeah.
I knew that I was going to pay a price
to divorce him.
I had been married 15 years and, um--
Two children, identical twin boys.
And, um, there were some
mental health issues.
He had terrible mood swings.
He was always getting into
shouting matches with people.
Um, I also-- Like April,
I wasn't physically abused.
You know, that's such a misconception.
For me it was emotional abuse,
sexual abuse and psychological abuse.
And alcohol use really just
made those issues even worse.
And, um, it came to a point where my boys,
who were 13 at the time,
came to me and they said that he was
drinking in the car with them.
You know, so I went to him
and I said, "Look.
It's time for us to get a divorce."
And he looked at me and he said,
"Why don't you go upstairs
and get the boys
and try and leave
and see what happens to you?"
I was like, "You're-- You're scaring me.
Why are-- Why are you saying that?"
And he was like, "No. Go ahead. Try.
See what happens to you."
The police and my attorney…
[sighs] …told me I needed to get
a temporary protective order.
Right.
Now, he was a huge gun enthusiast.
There were 74 firearms in my house.
-[Stewart] Seventy-four?
-Yes.
[audience murmuring]
Most of them were locked
in two big gun safes.
But he liked to carry,
so he always had one on his ankle.
There was one in his vehicle,
one in his desk drawer.
And, um…
It was granted.
I was granted that protective order.
And they would come and take the guns?
All but one.
All but one?
They let him leave
with the firearm in his truck.
Yeah, she told me she couldn't get it.
It was a gray area.
He shot me with it five days later.
He-- He ambushed me.
He was hiding on the side of the house
with a gun holster,
a Smith and Wesson 9 millimeter,
and an extra box of ammunition.
He thought I was at football practice
with my father and the boys,
which we were.
He was waiting on all of us.
I just happened to come home early,
by myself,
'cause I had groceries in the car.
I was shot six times
with the 9 millimeter.
He shattered my right femur.
He shattered my left knee.
I have a through and through in my thigh.
I have a through and through
in my abdomen.
He took out a third of my right lung.
And then the last shot
hit my L2 vertebrae.
One of the things that feels the hardest
when-- when you're all discussing it
is the concern that judges seem to have
for the abuser
and the concern law enforcement
seems to have for the gun.
And it feels like more steps are taken
to make sure that
the abuser's due process isn't violated,
and their concern is,
"Can't get the gun in the car.
That's the gun.
-I don't want to overstep my gun getting."
-[Ross] Right.
Family violence
and domestic violence offenses
are classified as misdemeanors.
And when people hear
the term "misdemeanor,"
they think nonserious crime.
We need to get to point where
law enforcement doesn't have
that kind of hesitancy or
lackadaisical, um, attitude about--
He should have been taken in
for the aggravated stalking,
-which would have been a felony.
-[Stewart] Right.
And he wouldn't have gotten bail.
He wouldn't have bonded out.
And he wouldn't have been able to,
four days later, shoot her.
So, I want to let the audience know,
in the dressing room,
-your friend is back there.
-Yeah.
-And she's just lost her daughter.
-Yeah.
-To domestic violence.
-Yes.
I thought the two of you had met
in some kind of support group,
and she said, "Oh, no.
We've been friends since we were kids.
I live right up the street."
Her beautiful daughter was shot
and killed by her boyfriend
when she was 19 years old.
To my mind,
this is an unseen and unheard epidemic.
And so we're gonna come back
and talk a little bit
about how we gain control of it.
-Yeah.
-All right, we'll be right back.
[audience applauding]
So the Lautenberg Amendment
prohibits anyone in this country,
regardless of where they live,
who has been convicted
of a misdemeanor crime
of domestic violence
from purchasing a firearm
or possessing a firearm.
The federal law, however, does not require
or even speak to removing firearms.
There's no federal reference to that.
What people, from professionals
to the general public,
could not wrap their heads around are
the steps and the actual logistical pieces
that need to happen.
Everyone agreed, yes,
this person should no longer have a gun.
We agree on that.
But how it actually gets done,
they just couldn't fathom it.
Often, whether you are safe
depends on where you live,
what law is in place in your state,
and if you're in a county
that will implement it.
One of the most impactful statements
that I have heard is--
has been between
one police chief to another.
When one chief was saying,
"Where do I put all of these guns?
There's gonna be hundreds of guns.
Where are we gonna put them?"
And the other chief just simply said,
"The same place you put it
after he kills her with it."
[audience applauding]
We're talking with
April Ross and Janet Paulsen.
So, what allowed you guys to take this
trauma and turn it into activism
and start to advocate for victims?
How did this come about for you?
[Ross] For me, I, um…
Almost instantly, the news was clamoring
to get to me when they found his body.
-[Stewart] He killed himself.
-Right.
He killed himself a few hours later.
And so the victim-blaming starts
immediately.
"She must have done something."
Oh, and for me, oh, heaven forbid
there was a man in my car,
you know, so,
"She must have been cheating."
You know, "She was
at another man's house," you know, so…
And it's almost that
"she got what she deserved"
is the underlining message.
I was getting furious,
and finally I decided to reach out
to a reporter friend of mine
and give an interview.
What slowly starts to happen is,
you meet one person,
and then you meet another,
sort of how Janet and I got connected.
I was sent to her, um, hospital room
as her peer support mentor,
and, you know, I mentioned to her that
I was slowly starting to do some advocacy,
and I was trying to find a way
to make a solution
and bring some change
so that this doesn't keep happening,
and, "Do you want to do it too,"
and she said, "Yeah, I do."
I said, "I don't know what
we're gonna do, but we'll figure it out."
-Right.
-"When I figure it out, I'll call you."
-Yeah. Yeah.
-[audience laughing]
-You proposed legislation…
-[Paulsen] We did.
…and it was not passed.
In Georgia, we don't comply
with federal gun laws.
So if you're under a protective order,
or you have a domestic violence
misdemeanor or felony,
you've lost your rights to firearms.
But some counties in Georgia do.
-I happen to live in one that did.
-That complies?
All we asked for
was for the state of Georgia
-to comply with the federal law. Um…
-Right.
And it's not just Georgia, by the way.
This is not to make it seem like,
"Oh, yeah, in Georgia,
they got a real problem down there."
-No, no, no.
-Like, this is everywhere.
[Paulsen] Yeah.
[Stewart] What's the way to build this
so that women can feel safer
getting out of these relationships?
An officer had me
hold up a piece of paper,
and he said, "Okay, that piece of paper
is your protective order,"
and then he took a pen,
and he jabbed through the paper
while I was holding it,
and he said, "That's a bullet.
You need to arm yourself."
So, I went and I applied
for a concealed carry permit.
I, uh, own a firearm,
and I was trained, uh, by a certified
gun instructor on how to use it.
-[Stewart] Right.
-And it actually, kind of,
helped a little bit with my PTSD.
Instead of me looking, you know,
at the barrel of the gun, you know.
That image kind of changed.
But, you know, that's not the answer.
We can't solve this problem
at the shoot-out level.
-[both] No.
-The idea that if your husband
had come in with a weapon
and shot you six times,
that you could have outgunned him
seems ludicrous.
-It's ludicrous.
-And if the police--
the place you're going to
for protection is telling you,
"We are deputizing you."
[both scoff]
That's giving up.
In the prosecutor's office I worked in,
with the investigators interacting
with police officers every day,
there was not a true understanding
about domestic violence.
They only see it when you get
somebody black-and-blue in the face.
And that is not
what domestic violence looks like.
It looks like a person
walking down the street.
You don't need to see a person bruised up
to be able to agree or to acknowledge
that they're in an abusive relationship,
or that they're in danger.
And so, officers need intensive
domestic violence training
as a part of the police academies.
They need to understand
cultural dynamics, um…
because everybody that they go to
for a call isn't gonna look like them,
isn't gonna have the same
life experiences and background as them.
So they need to understand,
so that they respect the person who called
enough to take every call seriously.
Stop worrying about if the person's
gonna get back in that relationship.
On average, it takes a woman nine times
of trying to leave
before they successfully leave
a relationship.
And I can tell you, I'm above average
because I was--
It took me a whole lot more than nine,
you know,
-before I successfully left that marriage.
-I took two.
It's even also to look at--
If you look at a harm reduction model.
So let's say they overstep
on civil liberties, which, as we know,
the police are not, uh, loath to do
in other situations, you know.
They'll pull people over.
They'll do all kinds of things.
Worse things worse, if it wasn't really
a situation that was warranted,
you lose custody of your gun for a month.
-Right.
-But if not, a life is saved.
So how is that even in question?
The argument you get a lot of times is,
if you start here
with pulling back gun rights,
or if you take these guns away
in this situation,
then you'll just come up
with another situation
-where you can take guns.
-[Paulsen] Yeah.
And then another. It's the--
And then they argue
it's the slippery slope.
It's not a slippery slope.
We're already at the bottom of the hill.
[Paulsen] Yeah.
So what's next for the dynamic duo?
We have received a federal grant
to build a family justice center.
That's where you
fill out your police report.
-Childcare is there, uh, legal advisers…
-[Stewart] Mm-hmm.
…therapists. All in one place.
Janet, like she mentioned earlier,
lives in a community
that has decided
to take guns away from people
when they get a protective order
against them.
-Right.
-That didn't just happen on its own.
Even though I agree we need the state law,
community-level changes
are a good way to start.
Well, you guys are amazing.
And I really appreciate you being here
and talking about it.
I have a feeling you're gonna make
some enormous progress.
-Hope so. Thank you.
-Thank you so much. All right.
[audience applauding]
April Ross. Janet Paulsen.
We'll be right back after this.
Um, thank you.
You have a lot of the officers
that don't believe
in taking guns away from people,
and then you have to point out,
well, more officers were killed
by DV perpetrators than any other group.
You are not gonna see
a bunch of ATF agents, you know,
running around
collecting guns on protection orders.
They're usually looking
for bigger fish to catch.
They're issuing protective orders
but they're not taking the firearms.
The relinquishment's not happening.
I think the biggest barrier
is roadblocks we have mentally
with each individual person.
So we drafted
a mandatory divestiture process,
and believe it or not, in a red state,
they voted, and it was 96 to 0.
Absolutely no opposition at all.
I was-- I was floored.
You know, we're doing it here,
in little old Lafourche,
south Louisiana,
where everybody has firearms.
Changing police culture
is like bending granite.
I mean, you need heat, time and pressure.
And you can do it
with all three of those things.
[Stewart] The federal law is that
if you have a protection order
or a restraining order, or you've been
convicted of domestic violence,
you cannot own a firearm.
True. Or ammunition.
Or ammunition.
But there doesn't seem to be
a dissemination of that
into local and state-level enforcement.
That doesn't serve their interests.
Why is law enforcement not taking the lead
and weeding out bad guys with guns?
Um, I would say that, um,
a lot of the obstacles are cultural.
As cops, we're human beings
who bring all of our biases to the job.
So if we're a conservative white male
and a member of the NRA,
you're already in the headspace
that gun laws are bad,
everyone needs a gun,
and good guys will prevail.
There's a certain portion
of that going on.
But I would say it's not, you know--
I think we have a tendency to say, like,
"Okay, a conservative white man,"
but those aren't the only people
that dismiss women's concerns.
It's a problem in rural communities,
it's a problem in cities,
it's a problem in suburbs,
and it's all of the same dynamic.
I agree with you.
I mean, I agree with
how defeating this is.
-Right.
-And we have to also understand,
like, who are the actors
making the decision?
We know. There have been
studies doi-- done
that show that for law enforcement
themselves, as people,
there's higher incidence of domestic
violence in their own homes.
People don't wanna say, like,
"Hey, I had a bad situation
in my home that was violent."
-Right.
-"And I'm worried, like,
that person's mad at me, and they
could use this law to take away my gun,
and if that happens, I lose my job."
Like there are all these
other motivations going on.
-Right.
-There's also this, sort of,
throwing their hands up, saying, like,
"Gun violence is a problem
that can't be stopped."
Really?
It's just gonna happen.
It's part of the cost of doing business,
no laws are gonna prevent criminals
from getting guns.
Even if I took that gun,
that guy could have gone out and bought
another one just that day, or built one.
-Like, there's this frustration, like--
-But then why have any laws?
Drunk driving was a problem,
so we created programs
against drunk driving,
and the police would set up
drunk-driving checks
on the streets, right?
And you could make the argument,
"Well, that's a violation
of the Fourth Amendment."
They did make the argument and,
you know, it was controversial,
but it passed through.
-So it's all about rewards, right?
-Right.
So the federal government would send money
to police departments through
probably transportation, um,
to pay for overtime
for those officers doing that.
But we decided, as a culture,
drunk driving is a problem.
Too many people are dying.
It's a problem we're willing
to commit to owning
and paying for to solve,
and there were incentives
-to be good at it.
-Right.
You got overtime, you're gonna be
given awards if you catch a lot of people.
I mean, there was like--
It was carrots everywhere.
Like, I think that's a model for success.
How do you de-escalate
law-enforcement resistance?
I think it's pretty clear now
that the federal approach
is probably not the one
that's going to be very effective.
We live in an environment where
we're not gonna pass federal laws.
All right, so fighting that fight,
even though that--
[laughing]
-I mean, we're not, so--
-I know.
-So like--
-It's a funny thing to say out loud.
We live in an environment--
Especially when your job
is trying to advocate,
and we do seem, to some degree,
able to throw money at problems.
Police are strapped in their budgets,
and so, if you can give funding
from the federal government
that's coming outside the normal
local mechanism,
and ask them
to do programs and priorities,
people do what they have
the resources to do.
And they don't need legislative, then,
approval because laws already exist.
We have plenty we can do
with the laws on the books now.
You know, the first thing I ask is
would you have taken the same action
as a law enforcement
if that woman was your sister?
-Right.
-Like, wait, can we personalize it?
And that's what we've got to encourage
police officers to do.
Do you think domestic violence, then,
is not taken as seriously
because the culture is sort of, uh,
trained to not believe women
or to dismiss women's concerns?
Because it-- it does seem like
if this were happening to men,
there'd be a far greater outcry.
I think that's a fair criticism.
-And until that culture is fixed…
-Mm-hmm.
…we will remain broken.
The International Association
of Chiefs of Police,
you're a part of that organization.
Yes, and I was
on their firearms committee.
Only 25 of this large-- this organization.
I had two terms.
I wrote most of their materials
about gun violence prevention.
The firearms committee is in charge of?
All firearms policy that IACP endorses.
And I've been on it--
-I worked there for years.
-Just out of curiosity,
-how many women were on that?
-One.
How many people are on it?
Twenty-five. One person of color.
This is--
-One person of color and one woman?
-Yes.
Writing the policy for the IACP
on firearms?
That-- That seems fair.
Yeah. And so, IACP is largely now
representing small-town police chiefs,
rural chiefs, major-city chiefs.
Has a very different look.
-And, yes, this is shocking.
-But it's clearly a constituency
-that could make a difference.
-Oh, yes.
If they came out tomorrow as--
as, "This is an important initiative
that we're gonna put
a good amount of resource and time to,"
that would be enormous.
Why is a domestic violence situation
not in and of itself
-probable cause to remove firearms?
-That's a perfect example
where an officer goes in
and takes that gun.
This person says, "You just
violated my Fourth Amendment rights.
I have a Second Amendment right to that--
you know, to keep that firearm,
and I have protections
against unlawful searches and seizures."
We had two people on the show.
A woman named April Ross
and a woman named Janet Paulsen.
Both were survivors of domestic violence.
Janet got a restraining order.
They came to collect her husband's guns.
There was one in the car. She said,
"Can you please get that one as well?"
They said, "We can't."
And he shot her with that one.
Mm-hmm. A lot of times,
these orders are very specific.
-They come from a judge.
-Right.
Particularly when it comes to
Second Amendment rights.
So they go in and an officer takes
that gun out of the car,
-they're gonna end up in legal jeopardy.
-Mm-hmm.
It's about a protecting them on--
against a civil suit.
So now, a-as a cop--
You know, Jon, what are they making?
-You know? $60,000 a year…
-[Stewart] Right.
…and now you're gonna bankrupt this cop
because they're trying to do
the right thing to keep somebody safe?
What that says is, their hands are tied
about enforcing laws that are on the books
because they fear a legal process
against them.
Does the will not exist to do it
because of that legal question?
-Eh…
-And does that play a role?
Well, I know at the executive level
it doesn't, you know?
At the line and staff level, I don't know.
Do you still believe that it's possible
to do this at a legislative level?
We need a federal standard.
We need them to come in and say,
"We're not federalizing police,
but we need a federal standard
that people can train to, can understand,
that's evidence-based,
that makes sense." Right?
But having those conversations
in those offices with people--
When you look at 'em and say--
They're just not hearing me.
-You know? It's extremely frustrating.
-Right.
Where would you attack it?
As someone who really knows it
from being a police chief at a local level
and also having a good overview of it.
What would you do?
The game changer
for law enforcement has been
those extreme risk protection orders.
Does that differ
from a temporary restraining order?
[stutters] A hundred percent.
-Temporary restraining order, right?
-Yeah.
They're-- You have to really--
That's a high bar to get to.
On an extreme risk protection order,
it's not a high bar,
because it's a temporary separation
of you from your firearms.
A woman can go in and say,
"My husband has been polishing his gun
-and I feel like I'm in jeopardy."
-That's it.
-"And I need this."
-Perfect.
-That's a great example. Exactly.
-That would do it.
Right now,
there's only 20 states that have it,
and the District of Columbia, right?
So we've still got, you know,
another 30 to go.
And then the judge, you know, will--
Would they be able to take the gun
from the car too?
Yeah, under extreme risk protection,
they can take 'em all.
I think part of the problem
with this issue is
yes, it impacts women,
but what was illumining for me
is that it disproportionately impacts
Black and brown women,
-indigenous women, and--
-[woman] Trans.
Trans women. Um, and I think
that's also part of the problem
that we need to actually talk about.
-That we don't talk about.
-[Susan] Black women are twice as likely
to be shot and killed
by an intimate partner than a white woman.
-Which is shocking to me.
-And insane.
[Chelsea] That's the other end. It's like,
do we not move on this issue
because it's a bunch
of dudes affecting it,
or is it because it's mostly affecting
Black and brown women?
-Yeah.
-[woman] Probably a combination of both.
-Probably a hot combo with both.
-[all laughing]
[audience laughs, claps]
Pah, pah, pah, pah ♪
Thank you! Thank you so much
for watching the program
while, I'm assuming,
scrolling Twitter on your phone.
I cannot wait to see all 2,000 comments
agreeing with everything we've said
here tonight.
-[audience laughs]
-And, for even more, we've got a podcast.
Listen and sing along.
You can learn more about how to
join the fight against domestic violence.
Subscribe to our newsletter
at theproblem.com/cheesedip.
And check out these organizations.
We shall see you… Uh, next time.
Have a good night. Bye.
[audience cheers]
We are going to go.
-I'm Niecy Nash.
-And I'm Thandiwe Newton.
And we're the stars of a new movie,
The Real Thelma and Louise.
The premise of this reboot is to make
a real-life version of the classic.
So first off, Thelma and Louise
are being played by two Black women.
Our characters go on the run
after Louise shoots
Thelma's abusive husband in self-defense.
Thelma and Louise make it all the way…
to the driveway before they are arrested.
It's a pretty short movie.
Mm-hmm. But, you know, fun romp.
We do kiss once.
Iconic.
-Catch The Real Thelma and Louise.
-[Nash] The original girls' trip.
Take your white boyfriend
and enjoy the silence on the ride home.