Unnatural Selection (2019) s01e04 Episode Script
Our Next Generation
In animal models, it worked many times before.
But for human there were a lot of questions.
We have a fertilized egg with a sperm, and now it's a day one embryo, a so-called zygote.
So now, we need to arm our laser.
It's probably one of the favorite parts of all of us to hit something with a laser.
I need to open the shell of the cell.
And we're going in.
It's a kind of magic, right? You take the genetic material of one person and put it into the living being of another person.
So yeah, it's kind of magic.
This step is only the beginning.
The future of embryology is bright.
But I was wondering, you're from the US, and now you're in Ukraine, and, uh it's forbidden in the US.
So, what do you think about all of these three-person babies? We're on the verge of a technological breakthrough that could change the future of mankind.
Most people have no idea how rapidly things are changing.
We're now changing the DNA, the code of life.
It's amazing, the sorts of things that we could do with this.
The question is, should we? What happens if diseases were just eradicated? All technology is inherently about changing away from what is natural.
Good evening, everyone.
In 2013, researchers at the University of California discovered the power of CRISPR-Cas9 gene-editing technology, setting off a revolution in molecular biology that has continued to push the limits of what we imagined could be possible.
The world unlocked by the power of CRISPR may seem limitless, but for every utopian promise of eradicating diseases, maximizing agricultural yield, and producing wonder drugs, there are an equal number of dystopian stories of all-too-human hubris pushing us too far.
Where do we draw the line? How do you feel? Nervous.
- Nervous? - Mm-hmm.
What are you thinking? That I'll be able to see a little better and I just want to know what it's like.
The lights they kind of look like fires, and I obviously can't see anything else but that light.
That's what it looks like to me.
It's been a crazy a crazy, uh ride.
'Cause we found out - what gene it was in October.
- Mm-hmm.
- Right? October.
- Yeah, in October.
And then it was approved in December.
- Right.
- And then, - here we are.
- Right.
Middle of July, and we're about to have surgery.
He might not have to walk around with a cane.
He can go outside and play with his friends and not have to worry about tripping over the curb that he didn't see.
What's wrong? Hey.
I'm happy.
- So why are you crying? - 'Cause.
They're happy tears? - Yes.
- Hey.
- You're not nervous? You're just excited? - Yeah.
- Are you gonna sleep tonight? - Maybe.
I am very excited to introduce you to Dr.
Josiah Zayner.
He's pushing the boundaries of science outside traditional environments, including human and animal genetic engineering.
He left NASA.
Can you believe it? Um, but if you keep an eye on the popular media, you would have seen a story about Dr.
Zayner, who famously injected himself with CRISPR, uh, in front of a live audience.
And I know everyone wants me to ask, so I gotta ask.
Um Why did you do that? And what impact do you think that has had? Yikes.
- That's a loaded question, I think.
- Of course.
That's what we're here for.
There's this quote that kind of sticks with me.
It's a quote from Charles Darwin.
And he said that, "If our poor and our sick suffer not because of nature, but because of our institutions, great is our sin.
" If you look at gene therapies that are on the market now, the cost's near a million dollars.
To me, that's a huge sin by our institutions.
The crazy thing is, is that, as a genetic engineer, as somebody who knows how to make this, I can go to a a company, a contract organization and have them make it for a few thousand dollars.
A few thousand dollars.
Why did I inject myself? Well, I I injected myself because people who have chronically been oppressed by the system, people who have suffered I want to show them that there is hope, that they can be their own hope if they harnessed, you know, gene therapy and genetic engineering technology.
Stand right there.
Here you go, bud.
All right.
All right.
He's in surgery now.
They came in.
They gave him his drops.
Fifteen minutes later, they gave him his other his other drops.
The anesthesiologist came in and explained, you know, that they were gonna be putting him under.
They're gonna be there the entire time with him and if something was gonna go go bad, that they were there to, you know, to to keep him safe.
Is it dangerous? Are you worried at all that if it doesn't work, is that giving people a false hope, and is that something you're worried about? Is it dangerous? I You know, that's a tough question, because a lot of things are dangerous.
I'm not telling people, "Hey, look, you know what? You're gonna get cured tomorrow.
" But what I'm saying is, the way science is done, right, science is the process of people learning about things and then using it to help us all.
- Anybody can do that.
Right? - Mm.
Anybody can do that process.
This is what worries me, because six years ago no one imagined that we might be able to readily edit an entire species.
I'm a huge science fiction fan.
It's not there.
No one wrote a story about it.
No one even hinted about it, as far as I - as far as I know.
- What about Jurassic Park? What do you think would happen if somebody just gets some DNA for making a gene drive and you know, do an experiment with it? What happens if I just released it? What do you think would happen? Let's Let me put it this way.
A single tragic death in a poorly regulated clinical trial would probably set back the field of gene therapy by at least a decade.
Yeah.
And then, all those medicines that you hoped for are gonna be set back.
So that's why we need to be careful.
A single shot to eliminate HIV.
Seems too good to be true, right? Well, self-styledbiohacker Tristan Roberts thinks it could be possible.
Last month, live on Facebook, he injected himself with a gene called N6, but many in the medical community are outraged.
They call Robert's behavior "delusional," "risky," and "frightening.
" How many How many injections have you given yourself at this point? - Just that one? - Just the one, yeah.
Okay.
Um, and what's kept you from doing another one? The second version hasn't been ready.
But I think it's, like, it's - it's getting closer and closer.
- Mm-hmm.
Okay, so when you first started thinking about doing this, like, you put something that had not been tested in humans - or even animals, I think, in your body.
- Mm-hmm.
I mean, just like, emotionally, that must have been crazy.
I've already grappled with my mortality from getting the infection to begin with.
- Mm-hmm.
Right.
- I really, at that young age, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I really could die.
" I'm like, "Yeah.
" - Right.
- So But from the outside, it sort of seems like these first trials were super rushed, they were on a deadline.
Thinking that you could just, like, knock out an HIV therapy in three months.
HIV is enough that if you can just do a proof of concept in one person, then that's enough to open up a huge, like, line of possibilities.
I really think they need to be throwing different combinations at at people.
I think about the opportunity costs.
You know? I think that the amount of people who could be saved by having looser regulations is a much, much larger number than the people who would be harmed by testing out things early on.
I mean, who should draw these lines about what we're allowed to edit and what people should be allowed to pursue? What if now someone wants to use it to become stronger or for anything else or some memory gene to remember things better? Where do you think we stop, and what do you think are the important things to consider with that conversation? I don't do work on humans, because it's too controversial.
One problem I can see with CRISPR is if we edit eye color or hair color or height or intelligence, is that the person whose genome is being edited is an embryo, so they have no input into these genetic decisions that are being made for them.
At this point in this country, it's very clear that that we will not be allowing these kind of edits that can be inherited by your offspring.
People always break rules, right? People are gonna break it.
So, I think the question isn't whether we should help people stop people from cosmetically editing people.
I think the question is, how do we help it so that everybody can get these edits? What are we left with? We're left with a lot of athletic, attractive, healthy people? Like whoo, that's gonna be a terrible world.
Uh Okay.
I don't I don't know how to follow up on that last sentence.
Um I'm just worried, are we ready to have that kind of power to take that to the next level? That's done.
Got it.
Welcome.
- Thanks.
- And we're gonna go ahead and explain a little bit about how we do all this high-tech stuff - that we're doing these days.
- Mm-hmm.
So, we start off with a blood sample, and we're gonna screen you to make sure you're not carrying something.
And everyone lights up positive for something.
And if you do, we can check your embryos for that disease as well.
The second thing we can do now is add sort of frosting on the cake, and say, "All right, what else is available?" And it's, uh, my understanding you got an interest in eye color.
- Mm-hmm.
- I know there's an interest in blue eyes.
Yeah, I mean, take a look.
Yeah.
There are several genes associated with eye color.
We know what they are now, and we can predict what the chances are that an embryo is gonna have a given eye color.
So, this is not a 100 percent chance, right? We're up to about 92 percent now.
- Okay? - So, very close.
- So it's pretty high, right.
- Yeah.
So we'll give you a prediction on the eye color of each one of the healthy embryos, and then you can tell us what you want to do.
So fascinating.
Okay.
The bulk of patients that come here are happy and healthy, and there's nothing wrong with them.
They just want to choose.
There's not a lot of people letting people choose boys and choose girls.
There's There's no one, except us, right now letting people choose eye color.
What did he say, like, four to six weeks? - To get the results back? - I don't know.
Oh.
- Yeah, that's what he said.
- That's what he Yeah.
I wish it was, like, immediate.
A lot of the things that we do are socially controversial.
And we're totally fine with social controversy.
Some of the things that we do are not legal in a good part of the world.
As a physician and a scientist, I would normally go to the textbooks and look it up and say, "Should we be doing this?" And you look it up, and you get nothing.
There's no textbook on the shelf, because it hasn't been written yet.
So here, you can see a list of about 200 that are interested in choosing eye color.
These are from every nation on earth, including the North Pole.
I thought it was gonna be really heavy for blue eyes, but it's, um, it's pretty evenly divided between blue and green.
Um, about 30 percent each, and, um 40 percent brown eyes, from the Scandinavians who all have blue eyes.
So, I guess people always want what they don't have.
This is a girl, as was expected.
Baby's in critical condition.
When I first started with in vitro fertilization, I was actually in England with the team that produced the first baby.
That's it.
The baby cried I came back to the United States and introduced that we were going to start it up.
And I walked out to the parking lot, and someone had taped a note to my windshield that said, "Test-tube babies have no soul.
" New things are sometimes scary.
I like being a maverick.
Um, I like taking people on and trying to change their opinions.
So, we've added the sperm, and we begin to grow the embryos.
So, it started off as one cell.
One divided into two, into four, into eight, until they look like the blastocyst that's now under the microscope.
We analyze those genetically to see what characteristics this embryo has.
We do this individually on every single embryo.
We've got a computerized graph.
We plug the numbers into the graph, and it tells us what the chances are that we're gonna get a baby with whatever eye color they're interested in.
So, it's um it's actually a sort of a video game.
I mean, it's fun.
We tested eight embryos.
There is one euploid, uh, male embryo.
- And they want a male? - They wanted a male.
And it's a good quality hatching blastocyst, - so it should do well.
- Okay.
Well, we'll give 'em a call and let them know and, uh, bring 'em in for the boy.
In the US, fortunately, the government doesn't become involved in reproductive choices of couples.
We're able to diagnose embryos and provide all that information to the patients.
So, that's straightforward.
The next question that comes up is, "Okay fine, we have an embryo that's abnormal.
What are we able to do with that?" And at this point, in the US, nothing.
We can't do genetic engineering, and that's frustrating.
Why do we have to travel all the way to Ukraine and we could have done this in New York City? Of course there's lots of nice food here.
I have, how do you say, the difficult mission to introduce Dr.
John Zhang.
He's one of the pioneers of the nuclear transfer, from New York.
We are in a very exciting moment.
I think this is going to completely change the way, how human reproduction will look in the future.
The concept of nuclear transfer, or so-called "three-parent baby," will completely change the world.
What? Three parents producing one baby? How does that work? Three different parents? How does this work? So, the reason, uh, to make a three-parent baby is that, um, there's a small piece of DNA that exists in every cell, uh, that in, um, in a particular woman, was defective.
This DNA, called mitochondrial DNA, it's about 17,000 letters, uh, which is much, much smaller relative to the rest of the genome, but it's critical to create energy in the cells.
Mitochondria are located in the woman's egg.
They're like the powerhouses for the cell.
So as they get passed from one generation to another, then they can create babies with mitochondrial diseases.
Now, those diseases are fatal.
So, the idea here is that you take mitochondria from one woman, the rest of the DNA from another woman, and then the DNA from the male, and put it all together.
So therefore, the baby has three parents.
A full 23 chromosomes from its mother, 23 chromosomes from the father, and a mitochondrial genome from a third person.
It could help a lot of infertile couples, right? Oh, no question about it.
There are lots of women who can't give birth because they know they have this particular defect.
So it really does open the door of hope for them to have children of their own.
The donor cell is on the right, and the patient cell is on the left.
And all we need to do is the fusion.
We bring the DNA material from the patient's egg into a healthy donor egg.
That's just amazing, right? They do exactly what Mother Nature asks them to do to make a healthy baby, but without realizing that these are parts from two different ladies.
The Catholic Church is against it.
The Anglican Church is against it.
Because some say we're going down a slippery slope, designer babies.
You know, when you change mitochondria, that's one thing, but it's a slippery slope to be able to say, "What if I changed the gender? What if I changed the skin color?" You're committing a child to be part of an experiment for the rest of his life.
The FDA views three-parent baby, or three-parent embryo, as, uh, an embryo that has heritable genetic change introduced into it.
And so there has been a prohibition on moving forward with any research in humans on that technology in the US.
But prohibitions tend to have an unintended and untoward effect, which is pushing people who want to use them to places where there are not sufficient, or maybe any, regulation.
Why do we go there? Why do we go here? Why we're not going there? Why we're going here? The final destination is a healthy mommy and healthy babies.
- Hello? - Come in.
Hello.
So today, you have the possibility to see our clinic.
Yes, to visit some magic places.
The clinic's already 11 years old.
We did about 7,000 IVF babies.
And now we start to propose a new technique, pronuclear transfer, for the first time.
We feel the urgency, and we feel the need, and also we feel the excitement.
The population of this group of patients are accumulating.
We are having more and more patients in this group who need help badly.
We've tested all the embryos for everything we can on this planet to this moment.
So, every test that we can make, we've made.
While the procedure looks unnatural, we are doing something to fulfill people's very basic needs.
We always say, "It's in my blood.
It's in my genes.
" So, I think, unconsciously, we all feel that, one day, we would like to pass along our genetics into the next generation.
We are sitting here with our faces all blurred because, uh, there are a lot of people that don't want to accept all the changes that are going on, especially if it is about DNA.
People that don't face problems like we did, uh, they think, "Okay, it's natural in a natural way.
" They just have some fun and then they get, uh, a child, but it was very difficult for us.
The first feelings that we experienced, when we were told about this new technology, is that we finally had hope to get pregnant and have our own child.
Uh Because I believe that when you want a child no matter what, you achieve it.
- Good morning.
- Good morning.
How have you been feeling? I've been very well.
Great, great.
Do you have any questions for us? Yes, after the baby is born, during the first year, do you recommend a specialist to watch over our baby? When you first give birth, there are going to be tests.
The clinic will be observing and examining the baby for a certain period of time, checking the blood tests, etc.
So we will be looking closely to see how the baby grows.
Have you talked to your relatives on this topic? With your parents? It might be too much information for them.
They've wanted grandchildren for a long time.
It's not that important how they get them.
What you're looking at this is actually your baby.
That's how it looked before we transferred him and biopted.
This is right after the nuclear transfer.
In the next frame, it's already inside the cell.
Then it splits and evolves and evolves.
Let's see.
What's today? 2:30 a.
m.
on March 7th.
She's just waiting for labor to start.
It's just not starting.
I just took Isis' temperature.
It's 99.
1 degrees.
We'll see.
She's pregnant.
There's a feel-able lump, but there's nothing.
It's just not happening for her.
The issue is not with getting the gene in the sperm.
The issue is with getting the sperm in the egg.
What is wrong with the sperm? So, it's been a stressful week, but I've got a plan.
A lot to do tonight.
Gotta do like six transformations today.
Gotta run a gel from three PCRs I did last night.
This may turn out to be a long-term troubleshooting process.
All right, it's March 15th.
April 19th.
April 29th.
It's 2:06 a.
m.
I'm getting better sperm samples from this other male, 'cause he's in his prime.
May 7th at 3:35 a.
m.
- Okay, it's morning.
- It's 1:00 a.
m.
Trying to do this stuff nights and weekends and still have a full-time job and a family.
7:00 a.
m.
on the 22nd again.
So, I gotta hurry.
Um With any luck, they'll work just fine.
Fourth version of the bioluminescent plasmid.
12:13 a.
m.
3:30 p.
m.
July 15th.
Really don't understand this.
It took all day to crunch through the math on every study I could find.
I have chased it every which way I can imagine.
It's not working, and I don't know why.
And it's tricky because I got very little DNA left.
Bad thing is I have to go to work in the morning.
Top part.
You got the bottom part? Right there.
Press hard for me.
This too.
- Yeah.
- And the bear.
- Yep.
- And the tiger.
Tiger.
Listen.
Okay? You're good.
You're doing really good.
Shh Jack, try not to cry.
I know.
I know.
I'm not doing anything.
Can I put the washcloth on this tape? There's a little more tape.
I wanna put the washcloth on.
I think he's just tired.
Jack, you're gonna feel so much better when you take that off.
I know.
- I can do it.
- You got it.
- I can do it.
- You got it.
Whoa! Dude! - I did it.
- Oh, my God.
- Mom, can you get that? - Yeah, she's got that.
- You're doing it.
- I did it.
You did it! Don't touch.
- Don't touch though, okay? - Mom, get it.
- She got it.
- It's all gone.
Good.
That feel a little better? You did it! - All right.
- Okay.
What do you think? Why does everything Like, why does my eye look like it's changing colors almost, like I really don't know how to explain it.
Does it look silly? - Uh-huh.
- What does it look like? What's it look like, Ava? Not Not this one.
The other one.
Gooey.
Why does it look all gooey? I feel like I'm swimming.
It looks blurry.
You know, when that heals, you'll you'll have a brand-new eye.
Tell me why you decided I mean, this is a brave thing to do.
Some people will think it's stupid, but it's undoubtedly a brave thing to do.
Tell me why you've decided to do this against medical advice? I think we really can't wait for the established players to develop an actual cure for HIV.
It takes millions of dollars and around five years to test out a new therapy, right? My health has been fine, so I feel like I'm in a good position to benefit people who are in more desperate situations.
So, um, we might end up pushing it to Sunday.
But I think we're all pretty optimistic that the next batch will be very effective at destroying HIV.
But you might have to use multiple genes and multiple antibodies in order to suppress the virus.
Tune in on Sunday for the, uh, HIV therapy.
We have three open-access gene therapy platforms that are open to researchers, independent and commercial, around the world.
Can you hear me now? Uh, yeah.
So, like, what's going on with Aaron? Um, I don't know what his plan is.
I don't know if he's just all PR and marketing or if he really is as optimistic as he seems.
These guys are getting these complexes like they can cure people, and like, he has no idea about any of this medical stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know if I'm supposed to be telling you this, but Aaron started, like, pre-selling stuff, like, just to be on the waiting list.
Oh, gosh.
Once you start getting involved with people who are you know, claiming they can cure diseases, you just start to head down that path - of fucking scammers.
- Yeah.
Do you really want that on your conscience? Like Do you really want that on your conscience? Tristan.
Effectively, he's becoming a martyr.
He's like, "I don't care if this hurts me.
I'm willing to do this to try to push things forward," and he should care.
He should care.
What I preach is, like, "Be your own hope," right? Be your own hope.
Know enough that you can treat yourself.
It's this, like, double-edged sword.
I try to make it accessible so then people don't think they can't do it.
But then, at the same time, people think they can do it.
And it's like, "Well, you can, but you have to, like, learn a little before you do it," right? And that's where I think it starts to get a weird area, where you have people who are encouraging people to do stuff.
It's getting sketch into sketchy territory, right? It's Should people have access to the tools to be able to do genetic engineering? Yes, right? Totally, I believe so.
But let's start to get more nuance.
If you're not affecting anybody else, it's totally cool.
But once you start affecting other people, then, you know, you need to really think about it.
And I think the problem is my actions are now starting to affect people.
And so I I have to be more careful with what I say now, because people are fucking listening.
You know, I'm starting to see that there could be repercussions in real people's lives.
Real people get hurt because of it.
I feel responsible if something bad happens.
Aaron, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you.
So do you want to tell me exactly what law you think we're breaking here, or I'm breaking here? The FDA is gonna say you're selling unregulated drugs.
Unregulated research compounds, not for human consumption.
Yeah, but, like, what's the actual intent, right? Doesn't matter.
They're gonna see right through all this shit.
And what are they gonna do about it? I don't know.
Like, I've been uncomfortable with a lot of the stuff going on for a while, and it's getting worse and worse.
I've got two kids.
I can't If I get a $50,000 fine and three years in jail, what the fuck are my kids gonna do? I'm not worried.
I'm in the front for a reason.
I'm not worried.
I don't know.
I feel like you should be.
'Cause none of that shit's been tested.
None of that shit's remotely ready.
We have to pre-sell.
We have to sell.
Like, how did you think this was gonna be monetized? If something goes bad, I don't know that I could sleep at night.
"Up till this point, I've done my best not to publicly comment on other biohackers in general, and especially Ascendance, because I believe people should be able to do what they want if they aren't hurting anyone or misleading others to hurt themselves.
Unfortunately, it has reached a point where they are gravely misleading people.
If you really truly have a tested cure, show me the data, and I can definitely put you in touch with people who will help you get it funded for actual clinical research.
Ascendance Bio are not legit in any measure.
They have created no cures.
In my opinion, they don't deserve the moniker of 'biohacker' or 'scientist.
'" So, as I've been combing through more and more literature, I see this reoccurring part that it's probably gonna need multiple antibodies in order to have a suppression that's durable.
Something that lasts over time.
Because of this, it seems like just taking N6 will almost inevitably lead to resistance developing which could potentially screw up my ability to use these therapies in the future.
So, like, I respect the drive to get this out as soon as possible, but I need I need time.
We don't know for sure if N6 will not or will be a cure.
Until we prove that ourselves, I think we're okay to move forward with it in this way that we are This puts me in a very uncomfortable position.
Even the science doesn't matter to an extent.
It's your emotions and how you feel that dictate your actions.
And those aren't always gonna be dictated by logic.
I'm not here to put pressure on you.
I'm here to open a door for you, and you can walk through that door any way that you see fit.
Well - It's Yeah, I mean - Because - what else would self-experimentation be? - Just I don't think it's responsible to, like, take just this off of one data point.
- I have to take this call, so - Oh.
He thinks that being able to just sell N6 would be, like, lucrative.
You're You're a lab rat.
You're not You're not patient zero.
- You're still a lab rat.
- Yeah.
I mean, these guys I mean, I would think they know this, but I don't think they really grasp it yet.
That without the money, we can't do the work.
You know? Everything that we do, um, is paid for by me.
You know, it This puts him in a position where he's probably not the most viable individual, moving forward to continue testing.
That, unfortunately, is the way of the world.
Like, the people who are able to move forward quickly, the quickest, the easiest, the most efficiently, um, with the least setbacks and the least resentments or emotional undercurrents holding them back, are the ones who are able to succeed in getting these therapies to market and to the individual.
We will have to continue financing, you know, the blood draws, and the testing, and everything of that nature.
Is this really the best investment? Um, is this really the thing that's going to, like, bring this, uh, to people as fast as possible? I wanted to have a conversation.
I wanted to be able to talk about these things.
I'm the one paying the rent.
I paid for all the equipment.
I paid for all the materials.
I paid them.
I do, you know I respect that you've made the investment, but everyone disagrees with you.
I just want it to be ready when it's ready.
I'd much rather it be made safely without too much with minimal amounts of stress.
I mean, in terms of Ascendance, in terms of funding, this is as far as I can go right now.
This is, like, a setback for my faith in biohacking.
I feel like I am much closer to understanding what is needed for a cure than I was, you know, six, 12 months ago.
I don't know if I'm necessarily, like close to having access to this cure, but Hmm.
Yeah, my attachment wasn't so much in my own cure.
It was in hmm, in a bigger system, in what can be.
There is a sense of frustration, right? But honestly, disappointment's the bigger feeling.
There has to always be a place for the nobodies to go to, right? 'Cause we have to be able to say, "Okay, I'm just I'm not a PhD, I'm not anything else, but I'm passionate about this problem, and I intend to fix it.
" I'm afraid that people will see that as it's just not possible at smaller scales, and that, um, sort of the thesis of biohacking is is is wrong.
Um, and so that you have to be a giant corporation in order to pull this stuff off, and I don't think that's true even now.
There needs to be somebody taking the technology from patents and doing things with them, and it's only gonna get easier over time.
If you end up in a position where you need a million dollars to do it, the superrich, even if it's illegal, just go somewhere and get their kids gene-edited, we end up with super elites who can't be touched.
Nobody has ever done gene therapy or genetically modifying animals in this setting with these tools before.
And so it takes time to discover what works and what doesn't work.
And And that's okay.
We're still doing it at a breakneck speed compared to the history of life on the planet.
We see the heart beating, the eyes.
No, I find nothing that would attract our attention or could be a reason to worry.
We were worried how our child would evolve because these are the first children to be born um with this technology.
But I do not believe that these children will be different from ordinary children, who were born naturally from two parents.
If I take a car, for example, a BMW.
And you change the tires from another supplier, not from a BMW, you'd still it's still a BMW, right? We're not talking about, uh, cars.
We're talking about people, but still, we're okay with it.
Time will tell that this technology will eventually become legally acceptable, and most important to me is to see whether it's publicly acceptable.
We never thought it was possible, so when anything new comes in, it takes time to make adjustments.
No germ line modification.
That's been the bright-line rule.
Well, there's now discussion about, "Well, why is that an appropriate bright-line rule?" If we think these diseases are so bad, why do we think it's acceptable for them to be passed on? Even if we've cured the people who suffer from them, why should they be passing on those genetic diseases to their offspring? You know, you can have a 40-parent child, 100-parent child.
You could even have a synthetic genome that goes into making a baby.
I'm confident that people are gonna use these technologies to to enhance, um, superficial aspects, to, you know, for eye color, hair color, uh, sports ability and musical ability.
We are actually collecting blood on vocalists.
And I say to them, "You know, we don't really know where that great voice came from, but we know that your mother had it also.
And wouldn't it be great if you were willing to donate some blood to me, so that someday, maybe we'll understand where this came from.
" We're always trying to change who we are to a different degree or extent.
Why do we have so many plastic surgeons? Why have so many cosmetic products? We want to design ourselves in a certain different way.
What genes are appropriate to edit? Where do you draw the line between something that's beneficial or even necessary for health, and something that might be simply desirable? Someone wants blue eyes.
Should I say no? Who am I to say no? Two of diamonds.
Four of clubs.
Seven of hearts.
Six of spades.
Eight of clubs.
Ace of spades.
Five of hearts.
Two of hearts and four of diamonds.
- Yeah? - Perfect.
Since genome sequencing is still, uh, relatively expensive, we've got to select certain groups of people, certain individuals, that we want genomic information from.
So, exceptional people with extraordinary abilities, extraordinary memories.
There's potential for your genome to contribute, you know, to a new understanding of memory, and maybe even enhance it.
That is amazing.
I never thought I'd be in a position to be able to help somehow like that.
- That's That's probably plenty, yeah.
- Okay.
Here are, uh, two of the sequencing machines that will ultimately sequence your sample.
One has to face the fact that a new technology is expensive typically, and in a world, where, increasingly, there's, uh, you know, a sense of gross inequities, how how do we think about this? If we are willing to go forward with these technologies, there should be fair access.
Equitable access.
It presents clearly a great challenge to us as scientists and just as members of society.
We're talking about technology that could produce desirable traits or remove undesirable traits, and of course, that raises all of the sorts of things that come along with thinking about eugenics, being able to control the traits of humans.
Eugenics seeks to apply the known laws of heredity so as to prevent the degeneration of the race and improve its inborn qualities.
There's an unfortunate history in this country of forced sterilization in parts of the United States.
An infamous policy to sterilize certain people because they were deemed to be defective.
In institutions such as this, all over the country, mental defectives are cared for.
But it would have been better, by far, for them and the rest of the community if they had never been born.
It's a profound thing, to take away someone's right to reproduction based on their their genetics.
And for me, that raises the specter of Nazi Germany within a context of this modern technology.
And so, if we want to maintain the race at the high level, everybody sound in body and mind should marry and have enough children to perpetuate their stock and carry on the race.
It's a little bit of the Gattaca future, right? That That, I think, is sort of where you start to think, "Wait a second, are we really ready to go down that route?" And if you weren't made this way, right, does that make you superior or inferior? Frankly, some scientists think that it should never be used in the human germ line.
I used to be a little shy and hesitant about designer babies, because I was the first one accused of doing designer babies, and I've changed totally.
I've come 180 degrees.
I love it now.
I think designer babies are the way of the world.
I think that, um, if we were doing this interview 100 years from now, we would say, "Hey, every baby is a designed baby.
" As these techniques are refined, it would be unethical not to use them to make people resistant to viruses, other diseases.
G, A, G And actually editing the traits that they prefer to have and the traits that we prefer, you know, humanity generally to have.
G, A, G, A, C, A, C A, G C Tip your chin back.
There you go.
That way, it stays in.
In.
In.
That one doesn't hurt, right? All right, which one's first? I'm looking at 'em.
- Does it go there? - Yep.
See? - That goes there.
- Perfect.
All right, now we need to find a piece that's exactly that shape.
- Is that the one? - Yep, see? It's in.
I feel like everything's kind of a blur now.
I mean, it's been three weeks since his first surgery, and a little short of one week from his second surgery.
But it's really been a lot of fun watching him just enjoy things that have been around him all this time, and he's, you know, getting to rediscover them in a different way.
There he is.
Giraffe.
Looks like a polar bear.
Um, a cheetah.
And a pig.
Ooh! I got a good idea.
Ava, can we get you down on the next step? I can't.
And say cheese.
Cheese! It's called "Mom Sitting at the Dinner Table.
" He's made a lot of progression in just these short three weeks.
Mom, look.
It's hard to imagine what three months is going to look like.
Good job.
Open your eyes really big.
Two.
Good, perfect.
That's what I wanted.
Excellent.
Let's just see how well you are seeing here.
What is that? T.
Okay.
And then? L.
Okay, here.
Look over here.
You see this? Now, what number's that? Eight seven, four - five.
- Wow.
Can you see those at all? - Six? - Uh-huh.
Four - That's good.
Uh-huh.
- Two.
You know, so he can almost really read almost normal print.
I mean, he's probably getting his print enlarged, but he's but he's, you know, he's way down here.
So, it's really getting to the point where he can read without having it enlarged.
Usually, when we cover one eye, his eyes would wiggle.
This really is truly impressive.
I mean, I've been doing this for over 25 years, and this is the first time I've actually seen this, so it's pretty exciting for me, too.
- I mean, it really is.
- Big difference, right? Yeah.
Yeah, no, he definitely has improved.
Things have gotten a lot brighter.
It's kind of crazy.
Like, I can see, and I know that.
I know that.
I think my confidence is gonna be a lot better.
I'm in! Guys! He got in! Guys, he got in! - Jackson's in.
- Mac, give me the chicken.
Jackson! That's my burden, like, for the whole life, is following these babies.
I think, because I was the first who made it, so, yeah.
It's my responsibility now.
I hope that they will be healthy during the whole period of their life.
I hope for long life.
The operation is still going on.
We've been waiting.
Soon.
Yes, I'll let you know.
Mm-hmm.
Ready, Freya? Let's go.
Boo-bah, boo-bah, bah! Things are moving faster than a lot faster than I thought, and, uh the thing I learned is that, when you don't think stuff is gonna happen in the world of genetic engineering you're gonna be wrong.
Things are way beyond anybody's control.
You know, got me at my own game.
You wanna play with your music toy? She likes to dance.
Come on.
Let's go.
Come here, Freya.
You want some milk? Genetics is crazy.
"You must never touch a dinosaur with horns upon its head.
It's not a cat, so do not pat.
Just look away instead.
" And here.
A Chinese researcher claims to have helped make the world's first gene-edited babies, twin girls whose DNA he says he altered.
The gene editing was done using a tool called CRISPR-Cas9.
Scientist He Jiankui says he edited the babies' genes to try to give them a trait few people naturally have: to help them resist HIV infection.
The recent announcement from a Chinese scientist about kids that were actually born with edited DNA, I think it's unconscionable.
I mean, this is just absolutely indefensible.
If you look at the edits that were purported to have been made in these kids, they are untested in humans.
They've never occurred in natural human beings.
I mean, think about that, right? And they've never been tested in animals, either.
So, this is truly experimentation on human beings.
I understand that my work will be controversial, but I believe family need this technology, and I'm willing to take the criticism for them.
A line has been crossed that should not have been crossed.
It's very disturbing.
It's inappropriate.
I would say that no babies should be born, um, at this point in time, following the use of this technology.
It just blows my mind, the the backlash.
Where are they getting this, like, anger from? It's all about being first in science, and you have to wait your turn.
And, uh, this guy didn't wait his turn.
He just, like, jumped the line.
We all want to be first, right? I mean, this is where you really feel that you're making a huge difference and you're getting recognition.
Um, but I think, in this particular case, the outcry from the community is so huge, that I think it'll slow things down.
If somebody offered me to be able to genetically modify my child and make them resistant to HIV or something like that, I would, for sure.
If your kid got a disease that you had that you actually had a choice in preventing from them, you'd feel horrible.
You'd just feel absolutely horrible.
Anyone would.
Oh! Oh, okay.
Just gonna take this out of the wrapping.
Okay.
Okay.
I grew up in a world where biohacking just wasn't a thing.
But, my kids they're gonna grow up in a world where this is this is everyday real stuff.
There's gonna be this younger generation coming up who's gonna see it all the time in everything.
Twenty grams, it says? Twenty grams per liter.
And the generation past them are gonna be built by it.
Taking control of our own biology is the natural course of human evolution.
I'm gonna look I'm gonna see if I can find that blue star there.
Okay But it's gonna take all of us, because nobody has the right to decide for everybody, and so everybody's got to make a choice.
We're currently still evolving.
We're still subject to natural selection, but we're in a transitional period here where we're transitioning from a future determined by selection to a future determined by engineering and design.
We no longer have to accept natural selection on its terms.
We no longer have to accept it as a process that we can't intervene in, that we can't change, that we can't control.
We can have our own goals.
People are very creative.
We value imagination.
We love to dream about what we might become.
The scary part comes when, all of a sudden, our technical discovery allows us to do something that literally no one had previously imagined.
But we cannot stop where we are.
We don't get to stand still.
There are many, many children dying, even now, who might be saved by this technology.
And I, for one, am not willing to say, "No, you shouldn't consider it.
We should have a moratorium on everything.
" We should not take that choice away from people.
The greatest hope of every parent is that our children will turn out to be better people than we are.
People who are more trustworthy, who are kinder, who are more compassionate, who will do more to make the world a better place.
And if one possible way of accomplishing that is by changing the genes that they are likely to inherit from us, then that, at least, is something that we should consider.
Shh, shh, shh Meet your boy.
You have a boy! Shh, shh, shh, shh.
I I have I have a I have a mixture of feelings about the CRISPR technology, to be honest.
It feels, on the one hand, awesome to be part of that.
On the other hand, I feel a powerful sense of responsibility.
There are no easy answers to this.
How we think about what makes us human at the level of our DNA.
That keeps me up at night.
That's the part that I worry about.
Because I don't want to impose reproductive restrictions on people, but I also don't want people to be doing things that are not responsible for their future offspring.
All of these things are needing to be discussed now because they can be done now.
Aah! A world without disease.
A world where no baby is ever born with a genetic disease ever again.
Like, that's so amazing, and it's so beautiful to me.
I can't believe people don't see it that way.
Let's go to bed.
We are in control of our destinies now.
What's the matter, Jack? Getting anxious, huh? Yeah.
You didn't bring your glasses today? No, 'cause they're hard to get into this and out for me.
Oh, okay.
I'm fine.
You're making me nervous.
I I feel like I'm gonna vomit.
Ava, wave to Jackie.
He's waving.
- Look, wave.
- Oh, now he sees us.
That's good.
That should hold you in good.
All right, Jack.
Ready? Okay.
You hold this.
Good girl.
Good girl.
Good job.
Three, eight, five.
Duchess.
Some gas.
Okay, go ahead! Oh, there he goes.
Oh, dear.
Oh, my God.
But for human there were a lot of questions.
We have a fertilized egg with a sperm, and now it's a day one embryo, a so-called zygote.
So now, we need to arm our laser.
It's probably one of the favorite parts of all of us to hit something with a laser.
I need to open the shell of the cell.
And we're going in.
It's a kind of magic, right? You take the genetic material of one person and put it into the living being of another person.
So yeah, it's kind of magic.
This step is only the beginning.
The future of embryology is bright.
But I was wondering, you're from the US, and now you're in Ukraine, and, uh it's forbidden in the US.
So, what do you think about all of these three-person babies? We're on the verge of a technological breakthrough that could change the future of mankind.
Most people have no idea how rapidly things are changing.
We're now changing the DNA, the code of life.
It's amazing, the sorts of things that we could do with this.
The question is, should we? What happens if diseases were just eradicated? All technology is inherently about changing away from what is natural.
Good evening, everyone.
In 2013, researchers at the University of California discovered the power of CRISPR-Cas9 gene-editing technology, setting off a revolution in molecular biology that has continued to push the limits of what we imagined could be possible.
The world unlocked by the power of CRISPR may seem limitless, but for every utopian promise of eradicating diseases, maximizing agricultural yield, and producing wonder drugs, there are an equal number of dystopian stories of all-too-human hubris pushing us too far.
Where do we draw the line? How do you feel? Nervous.
- Nervous? - Mm-hmm.
What are you thinking? That I'll be able to see a little better and I just want to know what it's like.
The lights they kind of look like fires, and I obviously can't see anything else but that light.
That's what it looks like to me.
It's been a crazy a crazy, uh ride.
'Cause we found out - what gene it was in October.
- Mm-hmm.
- Right? October.
- Yeah, in October.
And then it was approved in December.
- Right.
- And then, - here we are.
- Right.
Middle of July, and we're about to have surgery.
He might not have to walk around with a cane.
He can go outside and play with his friends and not have to worry about tripping over the curb that he didn't see.
What's wrong? Hey.
I'm happy.
- So why are you crying? - 'Cause.
They're happy tears? - Yes.
- Hey.
- You're not nervous? You're just excited? - Yeah.
- Are you gonna sleep tonight? - Maybe.
I am very excited to introduce you to Dr.
Josiah Zayner.
He's pushing the boundaries of science outside traditional environments, including human and animal genetic engineering.
He left NASA.
Can you believe it? Um, but if you keep an eye on the popular media, you would have seen a story about Dr.
Zayner, who famously injected himself with CRISPR, uh, in front of a live audience.
And I know everyone wants me to ask, so I gotta ask.
Um Why did you do that? And what impact do you think that has had? Yikes.
- That's a loaded question, I think.
- Of course.
That's what we're here for.
There's this quote that kind of sticks with me.
It's a quote from Charles Darwin.
And he said that, "If our poor and our sick suffer not because of nature, but because of our institutions, great is our sin.
" If you look at gene therapies that are on the market now, the cost's near a million dollars.
To me, that's a huge sin by our institutions.
The crazy thing is, is that, as a genetic engineer, as somebody who knows how to make this, I can go to a a company, a contract organization and have them make it for a few thousand dollars.
A few thousand dollars.
Why did I inject myself? Well, I I injected myself because people who have chronically been oppressed by the system, people who have suffered I want to show them that there is hope, that they can be their own hope if they harnessed, you know, gene therapy and genetic engineering technology.
Stand right there.
Here you go, bud.
All right.
All right.
He's in surgery now.
They came in.
They gave him his drops.
Fifteen minutes later, they gave him his other his other drops.
The anesthesiologist came in and explained, you know, that they were gonna be putting him under.
They're gonna be there the entire time with him and if something was gonna go go bad, that they were there to, you know, to to keep him safe.
Is it dangerous? Are you worried at all that if it doesn't work, is that giving people a false hope, and is that something you're worried about? Is it dangerous? I You know, that's a tough question, because a lot of things are dangerous.
I'm not telling people, "Hey, look, you know what? You're gonna get cured tomorrow.
" But what I'm saying is, the way science is done, right, science is the process of people learning about things and then using it to help us all.
- Anybody can do that.
Right? - Mm.
Anybody can do that process.
This is what worries me, because six years ago no one imagined that we might be able to readily edit an entire species.
I'm a huge science fiction fan.
It's not there.
No one wrote a story about it.
No one even hinted about it, as far as I - as far as I know.
- What about Jurassic Park? What do you think would happen if somebody just gets some DNA for making a gene drive and you know, do an experiment with it? What happens if I just released it? What do you think would happen? Let's Let me put it this way.
A single tragic death in a poorly regulated clinical trial would probably set back the field of gene therapy by at least a decade.
Yeah.
And then, all those medicines that you hoped for are gonna be set back.
So that's why we need to be careful.
A single shot to eliminate HIV.
Seems too good to be true, right? Well, self-styledbiohacker Tristan Roberts thinks it could be possible.
Last month, live on Facebook, he injected himself with a gene called N6, but many in the medical community are outraged.
They call Robert's behavior "delusional," "risky," and "frightening.
" How many How many injections have you given yourself at this point? - Just that one? - Just the one, yeah.
Okay.
Um, and what's kept you from doing another one? The second version hasn't been ready.
But I think it's, like, it's - it's getting closer and closer.
- Mm-hmm.
Okay, so when you first started thinking about doing this, like, you put something that had not been tested in humans - or even animals, I think, in your body.
- Mm-hmm.
I mean, just like, emotionally, that must have been crazy.
I've already grappled with my mortality from getting the infection to begin with.
- Mm-hmm.
Right.
- I really, at that young age, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I really could die.
" I'm like, "Yeah.
" - Right.
- So But from the outside, it sort of seems like these first trials were super rushed, they were on a deadline.
Thinking that you could just, like, knock out an HIV therapy in three months.
HIV is enough that if you can just do a proof of concept in one person, then that's enough to open up a huge, like, line of possibilities.
I really think they need to be throwing different combinations at at people.
I think about the opportunity costs.
You know? I think that the amount of people who could be saved by having looser regulations is a much, much larger number than the people who would be harmed by testing out things early on.
I mean, who should draw these lines about what we're allowed to edit and what people should be allowed to pursue? What if now someone wants to use it to become stronger or for anything else or some memory gene to remember things better? Where do you think we stop, and what do you think are the important things to consider with that conversation? I don't do work on humans, because it's too controversial.
One problem I can see with CRISPR is if we edit eye color or hair color or height or intelligence, is that the person whose genome is being edited is an embryo, so they have no input into these genetic decisions that are being made for them.
At this point in this country, it's very clear that that we will not be allowing these kind of edits that can be inherited by your offspring.
People always break rules, right? People are gonna break it.
So, I think the question isn't whether we should help people stop people from cosmetically editing people.
I think the question is, how do we help it so that everybody can get these edits? What are we left with? We're left with a lot of athletic, attractive, healthy people? Like whoo, that's gonna be a terrible world.
Uh Okay.
I don't I don't know how to follow up on that last sentence.
Um I'm just worried, are we ready to have that kind of power to take that to the next level? That's done.
Got it.
Welcome.
- Thanks.
- And we're gonna go ahead and explain a little bit about how we do all this high-tech stuff - that we're doing these days.
- Mm-hmm.
So, we start off with a blood sample, and we're gonna screen you to make sure you're not carrying something.
And everyone lights up positive for something.
And if you do, we can check your embryos for that disease as well.
The second thing we can do now is add sort of frosting on the cake, and say, "All right, what else is available?" And it's, uh, my understanding you got an interest in eye color.
- Mm-hmm.
- I know there's an interest in blue eyes.
Yeah, I mean, take a look.
Yeah.
There are several genes associated with eye color.
We know what they are now, and we can predict what the chances are that an embryo is gonna have a given eye color.
So, this is not a 100 percent chance, right? We're up to about 92 percent now.
- Okay? - So, very close.
- So it's pretty high, right.
- Yeah.
So we'll give you a prediction on the eye color of each one of the healthy embryos, and then you can tell us what you want to do.
So fascinating.
Okay.
The bulk of patients that come here are happy and healthy, and there's nothing wrong with them.
They just want to choose.
There's not a lot of people letting people choose boys and choose girls.
There's There's no one, except us, right now letting people choose eye color.
What did he say, like, four to six weeks? - To get the results back? - I don't know.
Oh.
- Yeah, that's what he said.
- That's what he Yeah.
I wish it was, like, immediate.
A lot of the things that we do are socially controversial.
And we're totally fine with social controversy.
Some of the things that we do are not legal in a good part of the world.
As a physician and a scientist, I would normally go to the textbooks and look it up and say, "Should we be doing this?" And you look it up, and you get nothing.
There's no textbook on the shelf, because it hasn't been written yet.
So here, you can see a list of about 200 that are interested in choosing eye color.
These are from every nation on earth, including the North Pole.
I thought it was gonna be really heavy for blue eyes, but it's, um, it's pretty evenly divided between blue and green.
Um, about 30 percent each, and, um 40 percent brown eyes, from the Scandinavians who all have blue eyes.
So, I guess people always want what they don't have.
This is a girl, as was expected.
Baby's in critical condition.
When I first started with in vitro fertilization, I was actually in England with the team that produced the first baby.
That's it.
The baby cried I came back to the United States and introduced that we were going to start it up.
And I walked out to the parking lot, and someone had taped a note to my windshield that said, "Test-tube babies have no soul.
" New things are sometimes scary.
I like being a maverick.
Um, I like taking people on and trying to change their opinions.
So, we've added the sperm, and we begin to grow the embryos.
So, it started off as one cell.
One divided into two, into four, into eight, until they look like the blastocyst that's now under the microscope.
We analyze those genetically to see what characteristics this embryo has.
We do this individually on every single embryo.
We've got a computerized graph.
We plug the numbers into the graph, and it tells us what the chances are that we're gonna get a baby with whatever eye color they're interested in.
So, it's um it's actually a sort of a video game.
I mean, it's fun.
We tested eight embryos.
There is one euploid, uh, male embryo.
- And they want a male? - They wanted a male.
And it's a good quality hatching blastocyst, - so it should do well.
- Okay.
Well, we'll give 'em a call and let them know and, uh, bring 'em in for the boy.
In the US, fortunately, the government doesn't become involved in reproductive choices of couples.
We're able to diagnose embryos and provide all that information to the patients.
So, that's straightforward.
The next question that comes up is, "Okay fine, we have an embryo that's abnormal.
What are we able to do with that?" And at this point, in the US, nothing.
We can't do genetic engineering, and that's frustrating.
Why do we have to travel all the way to Ukraine and we could have done this in New York City? Of course there's lots of nice food here.
I have, how do you say, the difficult mission to introduce Dr.
John Zhang.
He's one of the pioneers of the nuclear transfer, from New York.
We are in a very exciting moment.
I think this is going to completely change the way, how human reproduction will look in the future.
The concept of nuclear transfer, or so-called "three-parent baby," will completely change the world.
What? Three parents producing one baby? How does that work? Three different parents? How does this work? So, the reason, uh, to make a three-parent baby is that, um, there's a small piece of DNA that exists in every cell, uh, that in, um, in a particular woman, was defective.
This DNA, called mitochondrial DNA, it's about 17,000 letters, uh, which is much, much smaller relative to the rest of the genome, but it's critical to create energy in the cells.
Mitochondria are located in the woman's egg.
They're like the powerhouses for the cell.
So as they get passed from one generation to another, then they can create babies with mitochondrial diseases.
Now, those diseases are fatal.
So, the idea here is that you take mitochondria from one woman, the rest of the DNA from another woman, and then the DNA from the male, and put it all together.
So therefore, the baby has three parents.
A full 23 chromosomes from its mother, 23 chromosomes from the father, and a mitochondrial genome from a third person.
It could help a lot of infertile couples, right? Oh, no question about it.
There are lots of women who can't give birth because they know they have this particular defect.
So it really does open the door of hope for them to have children of their own.
The donor cell is on the right, and the patient cell is on the left.
And all we need to do is the fusion.
We bring the DNA material from the patient's egg into a healthy donor egg.
That's just amazing, right? They do exactly what Mother Nature asks them to do to make a healthy baby, but without realizing that these are parts from two different ladies.
The Catholic Church is against it.
The Anglican Church is against it.
Because some say we're going down a slippery slope, designer babies.
You know, when you change mitochondria, that's one thing, but it's a slippery slope to be able to say, "What if I changed the gender? What if I changed the skin color?" You're committing a child to be part of an experiment for the rest of his life.
The FDA views three-parent baby, or three-parent embryo, as, uh, an embryo that has heritable genetic change introduced into it.
And so there has been a prohibition on moving forward with any research in humans on that technology in the US.
But prohibitions tend to have an unintended and untoward effect, which is pushing people who want to use them to places where there are not sufficient, or maybe any, regulation.
Why do we go there? Why do we go here? Why we're not going there? Why we're going here? The final destination is a healthy mommy and healthy babies.
- Hello? - Come in.
Hello.
So today, you have the possibility to see our clinic.
Yes, to visit some magic places.
The clinic's already 11 years old.
We did about 7,000 IVF babies.
And now we start to propose a new technique, pronuclear transfer, for the first time.
We feel the urgency, and we feel the need, and also we feel the excitement.
The population of this group of patients are accumulating.
We are having more and more patients in this group who need help badly.
We've tested all the embryos for everything we can on this planet to this moment.
So, every test that we can make, we've made.
While the procedure looks unnatural, we are doing something to fulfill people's very basic needs.
We always say, "It's in my blood.
It's in my genes.
" So, I think, unconsciously, we all feel that, one day, we would like to pass along our genetics into the next generation.
We are sitting here with our faces all blurred because, uh, there are a lot of people that don't want to accept all the changes that are going on, especially if it is about DNA.
People that don't face problems like we did, uh, they think, "Okay, it's natural in a natural way.
" They just have some fun and then they get, uh, a child, but it was very difficult for us.
The first feelings that we experienced, when we were told about this new technology, is that we finally had hope to get pregnant and have our own child.
Uh Because I believe that when you want a child no matter what, you achieve it.
- Good morning.
- Good morning.
How have you been feeling? I've been very well.
Great, great.
Do you have any questions for us? Yes, after the baby is born, during the first year, do you recommend a specialist to watch over our baby? When you first give birth, there are going to be tests.
The clinic will be observing and examining the baby for a certain period of time, checking the blood tests, etc.
So we will be looking closely to see how the baby grows.
Have you talked to your relatives on this topic? With your parents? It might be too much information for them.
They've wanted grandchildren for a long time.
It's not that important how they get them.
What you're looking at this is actually your baby.
That's how it looked before we transferred him and biopted.
This is right after the nuclear transfer.
In the next frame, it's already inside the cell.
Then it splits and evolves and evolves.
Let's see.
What's today? 2:30 a.
m.
on March 7th.
She's just waiting for labor to start.
It's just not starting.
I just took Isis' temperature.
It's 99.
1 degrees.
We'll see.
She's pregnant.
There's a feel-able lump, but there's nothing.
It's just not happening for her.
The issue is not with getting the gene in the sperm.
The issue is with getting the sperm in the egg.
What is wrong with the sperm? So, it's been a stressful week, but I've got a plan.
A lot to do tonight.
Gotta do like six transformations today.
Gotta run a gel from three PCRs I did last night.
This may turn out to be a long-term troubleshooting process.
All right, it's March 15th.
April 19th.
April 29th.
It's 2:06 a.
m.
I'm getting better sperm samples from this other male, 'cause he's in his prime.
May 7th at 3:35 a.
m.
- Okay, it's morning.
- It's 1:00 a.
m.
Trying to do this stuff nights and weekends and still have a full-time job and a family.
7:00 a.
m.
on the 22nd again.
So, I gotta hurry.
Um With any luck, they'll work just fine.
Fourth version of the bioluminescent plasmid.
12:13 a.
m.
3:30 p.
m.
July 15th.
Really don't understand this.
It took all day to crunch through the math on every study I could find.
I have chased it every which way I can imagine.
It's not working, and I don't know why.
And it's tricky because I got very little DNA left.
Bad thing is I have to go to work in the morning.
Top part.
You got the bottom part? Right there.
Press hard for me.
This too.
- Yeah.
- And the bear.
- Yep.
- And the tiger.
Tiger.
Listen.
Okay? You're good.
You're doing really good.
Shh Jack, try not to cry.
I know.
I know.
I'm not doing anything.
Can I put the washcloth on this tape? There's a little more tape.
I wanna put the washcloth on.
I think he's just tired.
Jack, you're gonna feel so much better when you take that off.
I know.
- I can do it.
- You got it.
- I can do it.
- You got it.
Whoa! Dude! - I did it.
- Oh, my God.
- Mom, can you get that? - Yeah, she's got that.
- You're doing it.
- I did it.
You did it! Don't touch.
- Don't touch though, okay? - Mom, get it.
- She got it.
- It's all gone.
Good.
That feel a little better? You did it! - All right.
- Okay.
What do you think? Why does everything Like, why does my eye look like it's changing colors almost, like I really don't know how to explain it.
Does it look silly? - Uh-huh.
- What does it look like? What's it look like, Ava? Not Not this one.
The other one.
Gooey.
Why does it look all gooey? I feel like I'm swimming.
It looks blurry.
You know, when that heals, you'll you'll have a brand-new eye.
Tell me why you decided I mean, this is a brave thing to do.
Some people will think it's stupid, but it's undoubtedly a brave thing to do.
Tell me why you've decided to do this against medical advice? I think we really can't wait for the established players to develop an actual cure for HIV.
It takes millions of dollars and around five years to test out a new therapy, right? My health has been fine, so I feel like I'm in a good position to benefit people who are in more desperate situations.
So, um, we might end up pushing it to Sunday.
But I think we're all pretty optimistic that the next batch will be very effective at destroying HIV.
But you might have to use multiple genes and multiple antibodies in order to suppress the virus.
Tune in on Sunday for the, uh, HIV therapy.
We have three open-access gene therapy platforms that are open to researchers, independent and commercial, around the world.
Can you hear me now? Uh, yeah.
So, like, what's going on with Aaron? Um, I don't know what his plan is.
I don't know if he's just all PR and marketing or if he really is as optimistic as he seems.
These guys are getting these complexes like they can cure people, and like, he has no idea about any of this medical stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know if I'm supposed to be telling you this, but Aaron started, like, pre-selling stuff, like, just to be on the waiting list.
Oh, gosh.
Once you start getting involved with people who are you know, claiming they can cure diseases, you just start to head down that path - of fucking scammers.
- Yeah.
Do you really want that on your conscience? Like Do you really want that on your conscience? Tristan.
Effectively, he's becoming a martyr.
He's like, "I don't care if this hurts me.
I'm willing to do this to try to push things forward," and he should care.
He should care.
What I preach is, like, "Be your own hope," right? Be your own hope.
Know enough that you can treat yourself.
It's this, like, double-edged sword.
I try to make it accessible so then people don't think they can't do it.
But then, at the same time, people think they can do it.
And it's like, "Well, you can, but you have to, like, learn a little before you do it," right? And that's where I think it starts to get a weird area, where you have people who are encouraging people to do stuff.
It's getting sketch into sketchy territory, right? It's Should people have access to the tools to be able to do genetic engineering? Yes, right? Totally, I believe so.
But let's start to get more nuance.
If you're not affecting anybody else, it's totally cool.
But once you start affecting other people, then, you know, you need to really think about it.
And I think the problem is my actions are now starting to affect people.
And so I I have to be more careful with what I say now, because people are fucking listening.
You know, I'm starting to see that there could be repercussions in real people's lives.
Real people get hurt because of it.
I feel responsible if something bad happens.
Aaron, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you.
So do you want to tell me exactly what law you think we're breaking here, or I'm breaking here? The FDA is gonna say you're selling unregulated drugs.
Unregulated research compounds, not for human consumption.
Yeah, but, like, what's the actual intent, right? Doesn't matter.
They're gonna see right through all this shit.
And what are they gonna do about it? I don't know.
Like, I've been uncomfortable with a lot of the stuff going on for a while, and it's getting worse and worse.
I've got two kids.
I can't If I get a $50,000 fine and three years in jail, what the fuck are my kids gonna do? I'm not worried.
I'm in the front for a reason.
I'm not worried.
I don't know.
I feel like you should be.
'Cause none of that shit's been tested.
None of that shit's remotely ready.
We have to pre-sell.
We have to sell.
Like, how did you think this was gonna be monetized? If something goes bad, I don't know that I could sleep at night.
"Up till this point, I've done my best not to publicly comment on other biohackers in general, and especially Ascendance, because I believe people should be able to do what they want if they aren't hurting anyone or misleading others to hurt themselves.
Unfortunately, it has reached a point where they are gravely misleading people.
If you really truly have a tested cure, show me the data, and I can definitely put you in touch with people who will help you get it funded for actual clinical research.
Ascendance Bio are not legit in any measure.
They have created no cures.
In my opinion, they don't deserve the moniker of 'biohacker' or 'scientist.
'" So, as I've been combing through more and more literature, I see this reoccurring part that it's probably gonna need multiple antibodies in order to have a suppression that's durable.
Something that lasts over time.
Because of this, it seems like just taking N6 will almost inevitably lead to resistance developing which could potentially screw up my ability to use these therapies in the future.
So, like, I respect the drive to get this out as soon as possible, but I need I need time.
We don't know for sure if N6 will not or will be a cure.
Until we prove that ourselves, I think we're okay to move forward with it in this way that we are This puts me in a very uncomfortable position.
Even the science doesn't matter to an extent.
It's your emotions and how you feel that dictate your actions.
And those aren't always gonna be dictated by logic.
I'm not here to put pressure on you.
I'm here to open a door for you, and you can walk through that door any way that you see fit.
Well - It's Yeah, I mean - Because - what else would self-experimentation be? - Just I don't think it's responsible to, like, take just this off of one data point.
- I have to take this call, so - Oh.
He thinks that being able to just sell N6 would be, like, lucrative.
You're You're a lab rat.
You're not You're not patient zero.
- You're still a lab rat.
- Yeah.
I mean, these guys I mean, I would think they know this, but I don't think they really grasp it yet.
That without the money, we can't do the work.
You know? Everything that we do, um, is paid for by me.
You know, it This puts him in a position where he's probably not the most viable individual, moving forward to continue testing.
That, unfortunately, is the way of the world.
Like, the people who are able to move forward quickly, the quickest, the easiest, the most efficiently, um, with the least setbacks and the least resentments or emotional undercurrents holding them back, are the ones who are able to succeed in getting these therapies to market and to the individual.
We will have to continue financing, you know, the blood draws, and the testing, and everything of that nature.
Is this really the best investment? Um, is this really the thing that's going to, like, bring this, uh, to people as fast as possible? I wanted to have a conversation.
I wanted to be able to talk about these things.
I'm the one paying the rent.
I paid for all the equipment.
I paid for all the materials.
I paid them.
I do, you know I respect that you've made the investment, but everyone disagrees with you.
I just want it to be ready when it's ready.
I'd much rather it be made safely without too much with minimal amounts of stress.
I mean, in terms of Ascendance, in terms of funding, this is as far as I can go right now.
This is, like, a setback for my faith in biohacking.
I feel like I am much closer to understanding what is needed for a cure than I was, you know, six, 12 months ago.
I don't know if I'm necessarily, like close to having access to this cure, but Hmm.
Yeah, my attachment wasn't so much in my own cure.
It was in hmm, in a bigger system, in what can be.
There is a sense of frustration, right? But honestly, disappointment's the bigger feeling.
There has to always be a place for the nobodies to go to, right? 'Cause we have to be able to say, "Okay, I'm just I'm not a PhD, I'm not anything else, but I'm passionate about this problem, and I intend to fix it.
" I'm afraid that people will see that as it's just not possible at smaller scales, and that, um, sort of the thesis of biohacking is is is wrong.
Um, and so that you have to be a giant corporation in order to pull this stuff off, and I don't think that's true even now.
There needs to be somebody taking the technology from patents and doing things with them, and it's only gonna get easier over time.
If you end up in a position where you need a million dollars to do it, the superrich, even if it's illegal, just go somewhere and get their kids gene-edited, we end up with super elites who can't be touched.
Nobody has ever done gene therapy or genetically modifying animals in this setting with these tools before.
And so it takes time to discover what works and what doesn't work.
And And that's okay.
We're still doing it at a breakneck speed compared to the history of life on the planet.
We see the heart beating, the eyes.
No, I find nothing that would attract our attention or could be a reason to worry.
We were worried how our child would evolve because these are the first children to be born um with this technology.
But I do not believe that these children will be different from ordinary children, who were born naturally from two parents.
If I take a car, for example, a BMW.
And you change the tires from another supplier, not from a BMW, you'd still it's still a BMW, right? We're not talking about, uh, cars.
We're talking about people, but still, we're okay with it.
Time will tell that this technology will eventually become legally acceptable, and most important to me is to see whether it's publicly acceptable.
We never thought it was possible, so when anything new comes in, it takes time to make adjustments.
No germ line modification.
That's been the bright-line rule.
Well, there's now discussion about, "Well, why is that an appropriate bright-line rule?" If we think these diseases are so bad, why do we think it's acceptable for them to be passed on? Even if we've cured the people who suffer from them, why should they be passing on those genetic diseases to their offspring? You know, you can have a 40-parent child, 100-parent child.
You could even have a synthetic genome that goes into making a baby.
I'm confident that people are gonna use these technologies to to enhance, um, superficial aspects, to, you know, for eye color, hair color, uh, sports ability and musical ability.
We are actually collecting blood on vocalists.
And I say to them, "You know, we don't really know where that great voice came from, but we know that your mother had it also.
And wouldn't it be great if you were willing to donate some blood to me, so that someday, maybe we'll understand where this came from.
" We're always trying to change who we are to a different degree or extent.
Why do we have so many plastic surgeons? Why have so many cosmetic products? We want to design ourselves in a certain different way.
What genes are appropriate to edit? Where do you draw the line between something that's beneficial or even necessary for health, and something that might be simply desirable? Someone wants blue eyes.
Should I say no? Who am I to say no? Two of diamonds.
Four of clubs.
Seven of hearts.
Six of spades.
Eight of clubs.
Ace of spades.
Five of hearts.
Two of hearts and four of diamonds.
- Yeah? - Perfect.
Since genome sequencing is still, uh, relatively expensive, we've got to select certain groups of people, certain individuals, that we want genomic information from.
So, exceptional people with extraordinary abilities, extraordinary memories.
There's potential for your genome to contribute, you know, to a new understanding of memory, and maybe even enhance it.
That is amazing.
I never thought I'd be in a position to be able to help somehow like that.
- That's That's probably plenty, yeah.
- Okay.
Here are, uh, two of the sequencing machines that will ultimately sequence your sample.
One has to face the fact that a new technology is expensive typically, and in a world, where, increasingly, there's, uh, you know, a sense of gross inequities, how how do we think about this? If we are willing to go forward with these technologies, there should be fair access.
Equitable access.
It presents clearly a great challenge to us as scientists and just as members of society.
We're talking about technology that could produce desirable traits or remove undesirable traits, and of course, that raises all of the sorts of things that come along with thinking about eugenics, being able to control the traits of humans.
Eugenics seeks to apply the known laws of heredity so as to prevent the degeneration of the race and improve its inborn qualities.
There's an unfortunate history in this country of forced sterilization in parts of the United States.
An infamous policy to sterilize certain people because they were deemed to be defective.
In institutions such as this, all over the country, mental defectives are cared for.
But it would have been better, by far, for them and the rest of the community if they had never been born.
It's a profound thing, to take away someone's right to reproduction based on their their genetics.
And for me, that raises the specter of Nazi Germany within a context of this modern technology.
And so, if we want to maintain the race at the high level, everybody sound in body and mind should marry and have enough children to perpetuate their stock and carry on the race.
It's a little bit of the Gattaca future, right? That That, I think, is sort of where you start to think, "Wait a second, are we really ready to go down that route?" And if you weren't made this way, right, does that make you superior or inferior? Frankly, some scientists think that it should never be used in the human germ line.
I used to be a little shy and hesitant about designer babies, because I was the first one accused of doing designer babies, and I've changed totally.
I've come 180 degrees.
I love it now.
I think designer babies are the way of the world.
I think that, um, if we were doing this interview 100 years from now, we would say, "Hey, every baby is a designed baby.
" As these techniques are refined, it would be unethical not to use them to make people resistant to viruses, other diseases.
G, A, G And actually editing the traits that they prefer to have and the traits that we prefer, you know, humanity generally to have.
G, A, G, A, C, A, C A, G C Tip your chin back.
There you go.
That way, it stays in.
In.
In.
That one doesn't hurt, right? All right, which one's first? I'm looking at 'em.
- Does it go there? - Yep.
See? - That goes there.
- Perfect.
All right, now we need to find a piece that's exactly that shape.
- Is that the one? - Yep, see? It's in.
I feel like everything's kind of a blur now.
I mean, it's been three weeks since his first surgery, and a little short of one week from his second surgery.
But it's really been a lot of fun watching him just enjoy things that have been around him all this time, and he's, you know, getting to rediscover them in a different way.
There he is.
Giraffe.
Looks like a polar bear.
Um, a cheetah.
And a pig.
Ooh! I got a good idea.
Ava, can we get you down on the next step? I can't.
And say cheese.
Cheese! It's called "Mom Sitting at the Dinner Table.
" He's made a lot of progression in just these short three weeks.
Mom, look.
It's hard to imagine what three months is going to look like.
Good job.
Open your eyes really big.
Two.
Good, perfect.
That's what I wanted.
Excellent.
Let's just see how well you are seeing here.
What is that? T.
Okay.
And then? L.
Okay, here.
Look over here.
You see this? Now, what number's that? Eight seven, four - five.
- Wow.
Can you see those at all? - Six? - Uh-huh.
Four - That's good.
Uh-huh.
- Two.
You know, so he can almost really read almost normal print.
I mean, he's probably getting his print enlarged, but he's but he's, you know, he's way down here.
So, it's really getting to the point where he can read without having it enlarged.
Usually, when we cover one eye, his eyes would wiggle.
This really is truly impressive.
I mean, I've been doing this for over 25 years, and this is the first time I've actually seen this, so it's pretty exciting for me, too.
- I mean, it really is.
- Big difference, right? Yeah.
Yeah, no, he definitely has improved.
Things have gotten a lot brighter.
It's kind of crazy.
Like, I can see, and I know that.
I know that.
I think my confidence is gonna be a lot better.
I'm in! Guys! He got in! Guys, he got in! - Jackson's in.
- Mac, give me the chicken.
Jackson! That's my burden, like, for the whole life, is following these babies.
I think, because I was the first who made it, so, yeah.
It's my responsibility now.
I hope that they will be healthy during the whole period of their life.
I hope for long life.
The operation is still going on.
We've been waiting.
Soon.
Yes, I'll let you know.
Mm-hmm.
Ready, Freya? Let's go.
Boo-bah, boo-bah, bah! Things are moving faster than a lot faster than I thought, and, uh the thing I learned is that, when you don't think stuff is gonna happen in the world of genetic engineering you're gonna be wrong.
Things are way beyond anybody's control.
You know, got me at my own game.
You wanna play with your music toy? She likes to dance.
Come on.
Let's go.
Come here, Freya.
You want some milk? Genetics is crazy.
"You must never touch a dinosaur with horns upon its head.
It's not a cat, so do not pat.
Just look away instead.
" And here.
A Chinese researcher claims to have helped make the world's first gene-edited babies, twin girls whose DNA he says he altered.
The gene editing was done using a tool called CRISPR-Cas9.
Scientist He Jiankui says he edited the babies' genes to try to give them a trait few people naturally have: to help them resist HIV infection.
The recent announcement from a Chinese scientist about kids that were actually born with edited DNA, I think it's unconscionable.
I mean, this is just absolutely indefensible.
If you look at the edits that were purported to have been made in these kids, they are untested in humans.
They've never occurred in natural human beings.
I mean, think about that, right? And they've never been tested in animals, either.
So, this is truly experimentation on human beings.
I understand that my work will be controversial, but I believe family need this technology, and I'm willing to take the criticism for them.
A line has been crossed that should not have been crossed.
It's very disturbing.
It's inappropriate.
I would say that no babies should be born, um, at this point in time, following the use of this technology.
It just blows my mind, the the backlash.
Where are they getting this, like, anger from? It's all about being first in science, and you have to wait your turn.
And, uh, this guy didn't wait his turn.
He just, like, jumped the line.
We all want to be first, right? I mean, this is where you really feel that you're making a huge difference and you're getting recognition.
Um, but I think, in this particular case, the outcry from the community is so huge, that I think it'll slow things down.
If somebody offered me to be able to genetically modify my child and make them resistant to HIV or something like that, I would, for sure.
If your kid got a disease that you had that you actually had a choice in preventing from them, you'd feel horrible.
You'd just feel absolutely horrible.
Anyone would.
Oh! Oh, okay.
Just gonna take this out of the wrapping.
Okay.
Okay.
I grew up in a world where biohacking just wasn't a thing.
But, my kids they're gonna grow up in a world where this is this is everyday real stuff.
There's gonna be this younger generation coming up who's gonna see it all the time in everything.
Twenty grams, it says? Twenty grams per liter.
And the generation past them are gonna be built by it.
Taking control of our own biology is the natural course of human evolution.
I'm gonna look I'm gonna see if I can find that blue star there.
Okay But it's gonna take all of us, because nobody has the right to decide for everybody, and so everybody's got to make a choice.
We're currently still evolving.
We're still subject to natural selection, but we're in a transitional period here where we're transitioning from a future determined by selection to a future determined by engineering and design.
We no longer have to accept natural selection on its terms.
We no longer have to accept it as a process that we can't intervene in, that we can't change, that we can't control.
We can have our own goals.
People are very creative.
We value imagination.
We love to dream about what we might become.
The scary part comes when, all of a sudden, our technical discovery allows us to do something that literally no one had previously imagined.
But we cannot stop where we are.
We don't get to stand still.
There are many, many children dying, even now, who might be saved by this technology.
And I, for one, am not willing to say, "No, you shouldn't consider it.
We should have a moratorium on everything.
" We should not take that choice away from people.
The greatest hope of every parent is that our children will turn out to be better people than we are.
People who are more trustworthy, who are kinder, who are more compassionate, who will do more to make the world a better place.
And if one possible way of accomplishing that is by changing the genes that they are likely to inherit from us, then that, at least, is something that we should consider.
Shh, shh, shh Meet your boy.
You have a boy! Shh, shh, shh, shh.
I I have I have a I have a mixture of feelings about the CRISPR technology, to be honest.
It feels, on the one hand, awesome to be part of that.
On the other hand, I feel a powerful sense of responsibility.
There are no easy answers to this.
How we think about what makes us human at the level of our DNA.
That keeps me up at night.
That's the part that I worry about.
Because I don't want to impose reproductive restrictions on people, but I also don't want people to be doing things that are not responsible for their future offspring.
All of these things are needing to be discussed now because they can be done now.
Aah! A world without disease.
A world where no baby is ever born with a genetic disease ever again.
Like, that's so amazing, and it's so beautiful to me.
I can't believe people don't see it that way.
Let's go to bed.
We are in control of our destinies now.
What's the matter, Jack? Getting anxious, huh? Yeah.
You didn't bring your glasses today? No, 'cause they're hard to get into this and out for me.
Oh, okay.
I'm fine.
You're making me nervous.
I I feel like I'm gonna vomit.
Ava, wave to Jackie.
He's waving.
- Look, wave.
- Oh, now he sees us.
That's good.
That should hold you in good.
All right, Jack.
Ready? Okay.
You hold this.
Good girl.
Good girl.
Good job.
Three, eight, five.
Duchess.
Some gas.
Okay, go ahead! Oh, there he goes.
Oh, dear.
Oh, my God.