Louis Theroux s01e05 Episode Script
The Most Hated Family in America
1 I'm ashamed to be an American Where the fags can freely roam They spread their filth around this land, every pervert calls it home.
I've been living among members of the Westboro Baptist church And proclaim God's word today a fire-and-brimstone christian group made up almost entirely of a single family.
God hates the USA Welcome to our picket! Since the Iraq War, they've picketed dead soldiers' funerals in protest against an America that tolerates homosexuality.
America is doomed! God hates fags! Are you a homosexual? Are you or not? We're servants of the living God.
That's all that matters.
The Westboro Baptist church is probably the most controversial church in America.
Hush up! Hush up and obey your God! For three weeks, I'd try to fathom why they'd created such a strange ministry.
What's this one? Is this in the Bible? - Fags eat faeces.
That's a fact, hon! The church is situated in a suburb of Topeka, Kansas.
Its pastor is the family patriarch Fred Phelps, also known as Gramps.
- Hi.
- Hi there.
- You must be Shirley.
- Yes.
- I'm Louis.
- Hi, Louis But the day-to-day operations are now run by the pastor's daughter, Shirley, a lawyer and mother to 11 children.
- So this is an office area? - Yes.
So these are your signs.
- You've got "God hates fags" here.
- And "God hates you".
Don't think of fags as just those guys who are taking it up the tailpipe.
Think of it as people who are involved in some perverted sex act.
I'm talking about anything other than one man, one woman in their marriage bed.
So beneath that, are there gradations of iniquity, as it were? If you see a nation or a people who have risen up with one voice to say that it's OK to be gay, they are a doomed people, they have crossed the line.
When you say "gay pride", you have given over any notion that you're gonna admit that you're sinning.
You understand that? Being gay is an innocent, alternate lifestyle? That's what I believe.
Then you can't say then you believe it's not a sin.
Yes.
So YOU condemn yourself, cos by your words are you justified, and by your words are you condemned.
But am I right in thinking it wasn't a big thing for Jesus? He had other priorities rather than homosexuality.
It's not one of the Ten commandments, is it? Er, yes.
- Which one? - "Thou shalt not commit adultery.
" That's not being gay.
That's cheating on someone.
The streets of this nation are full of married men having fag sex.
That's adultery.
So don't try to pretend that you don't come under the umbrella of adultery just because you're a fag.
- Hi, guys.
- Hi.
- Hi.
- This is Gabriel.
How do you do? Go put your stuff awayThis is Grace.
For the last few years, the church has taken its message of God's hate to the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, reasoning that they were struck down by God for fighting for a depraved and doomed nation.
What is the plan today? We'll get out here and put these signs in the air.
At the funeral? You can call it that, but they're worshipping the dead.
You do research into the soldiers that have died? Staff-Sergeant Kevin Zeigler.
He died of an IED.
- That's a - Roadside bomb.
Right, an improvised explosive device.
Exactly.
His family was told that he and another soldier died while trying to disable the explosive.
He was 31.
Do you think it's possible that by getting in people's faces in this way, you're more likely to put people off the word of Jesus christ and the Bible? Ohh! Just in terms of human psychology? You think our job is to win souls to christ.
By getting in their face and putting signs in front of them, we just make what was already in their heart come out of their mouth.
- What do you really think? - This is what I really think.
But there's a part of you that doesn't think that? No, there's not any part of me.
- The commandment has gone forth.
- Why go down there? America is doomed.
- Because we are the evil angels.
- EVIL angels? Exactly.
Not because we're evil people, but we're bringing the message of the evil that God has determined upon you.
Once we deliver that - I thought God didn't do evil? - My goodness! come on, guys.
Let's get outta here.
Let's bail! This is our corner.
come on, little boys! Zach, hop in in case he wants you I'm gonna keep a bit of a distance, cos I'm not part of the picket.
- That's OK.
- You know what I mean? - I'm just here as a journalist - Yes.
- Shirley? - Yes.
Today's picket was at an intersection near a church in Kansas city, Missouri.
Among the picketers was the pastor's wife, though of the pastor himself there was no sign.
Like many states, Missouri has established strict regulations to try and limit the Phelps' contact with the bereaved and I was relieved to see how far from the funeral the church members had to be.
God hates America! America is doomed! - This is shameful.
- Yeah.
- Right down shameful.
- Yeah, hon.
You've got little kids like this You obviously raised your brat for the devil, your big gluttonous brat for the devil! - And you're going to Hell.
- I don't agree with the lifestyle.
- Yes, you do.
- No, I don't.
Yes, you do.
You love fags, you hate God, so just shut up! What was he talking about? "I don't agree with fags, but que sera sera" - Fuck you! - You think you can fix this with that? You think you're gonna change God? You know why you're there, you fucking bitch? Because you are a rebellious brat! That's why! I mean, I've only been out here 25 minutes or so, but so far the reaction has been approximately 100% negative.
- Would you agree? - Yeah.
Is there another way of delivering the message, like a letter of consolation to the soldier's family? We do letters all the time, but not consolation.
You angered the Lord Your God and now he's cursed your family! There's no consolation there.
They're not gonna have any consolation.
As a picket today, how would you rate this, marks out of ten? Hon, they're all tens.
All of them.
Would you say ten out of ten as well, Jacob? Yeah, God did this, therefore it's perfect.
Does everything get ten out of ten? - Yeah.
- Thank God for all of his judgments.
Not one word falls to the ground.
A little later, Shirley and I regrouped at the family homestead where most of the 70 or so churchgoers live.
So this is the centre of the headquarters right here? You can call it that.
- What would you call it? - My back yard.
But it's also the back yards of all these other houses.
There's real lines of demarcation, but we took the fences down for the children.
You don't live communally with the other members of the church? No.
No, no, no.
Where does Pastor Phelps, the patriarch, live? - On that second floor.
- Up there? In that building you've got the house part to this side and the church part to that side.
Have you wondered if you might be part of a cult? What do you have to be to qualify as a cult? It's a fringe religious group that exercises an inordinate amount of control over its members.
You have to have other things also.
Brainwashing and a charismatic leader at the top? Maybe Fred Phelps, your father, could qualify.
I don't care about all that nonsense.
We're the ones who are adhering to the doctrines of faith of all the mainline religions.
They're not.
We are.
So what else you got? To help her run the ministry, Shirley relies on her two eldest daughters, Megan and Bekah.
This is Bekah's room, OK.
I don't see any posters of pop bands.
No.
- Can we look in your closet? - I guess you can.
- You have quite a lot of clothes.
- Yeah, pretty much.
- Are there rules about what you can wear? - Modesty.
Our parents don't have to tell us.
We know what we can wear.
- We know what's appropriate.
- How do the girls at your school dress? One word - whore.
- Do you agree? Same way? - Yeah.
What do other people at your school think of you? - They hate us, but we're nice to them.
- Why do they hate you? Because they hate the message.
We tell them, "You can't live the way you're living and go to Heaven.
" - Shall we do the next room? - Yes.
So, basically, your circle of friends is mainly or exclusively limited to people who are part of this church? Yeah.
Do you have any friends outside this group? No true friends.
Friendship with the world is enmity with God.
- May I ask if you've had boyfriends? - No, we haven't.
No.
Why not? Because in this life we're not about serving ourselves.
It's a temptation that's not needed and it takes up time we don't have.
When you come on with a lot of this stuff about the Bible, some people might think you're arrogant.
If they're offended by the judgments that we make, that we make according to God's standard, that is a clear indication that they hate God's word, and that they're headed for Hell.
We're marching, we're marching We are marching, Lord We're marching, we're marching We're marching to Zion, Lord We're marching to Zion The end of my first day at the church and during a choir practice, I had a moment to reflect.
.
.
The beautiful city of God I felt I had been bombarded with religious rhetoric and it was preventing me from getting to know the church members as people.
With the girls especially, I sensed there was another side to their story and I was curious to know more.
Beautiful Beautiful city A beautiful city Of Go-o-o-o-od! The next day and I was on my way to see Jael Phelps, niece to Shirley, cousin to Megan and Bekah, and in her day job, a nurse in training.
It would be a chance to meet another of the younger women and to ask about family members no longer in the church, having run off or been excluded.
- How are you doing? - Good.
- Can we come in? - Uh-huh.
- Can you show us around? - This is the computer study area.
This is a picture of the girls in the church when they were younger.
- Let's see that.
- Mm-hm.
- Who's that? - Cathy.
- She's gone? - Yes.
And who's that? This is Betty, this is Fred Junior's wife.
This is my Aunt Liz.
This is Dot.
- She's gone? - Right.
This is Becky.
That's my grandma.
This is her daughter Sharon who has also gone.
- Is everyone else gonna stay? - Everybody else? - Yeah.
- As far as we know.
- I think so.
- Are you gonna stay? Yes.
- Do you like it? - I love it.
- Do you? - Yes, I really do.
As far as you're concerned, those people that have gone away, - they're going to Hell? - Yeah.
- What if you don't believe in the Bible? - You're going to go to Hell.
- So I'm going to Hell? - Yes, Louis, you're going to Hell.
You are.
Anyway, this is my room.
Ta-da! There's pictures everywhere.
- What is this one? - You like it? Yeah.
It's the Wrath of God as revealed from Heaven.
Do you think that's what it might look like when the Scripture is fulfilled? That kind of thing, natural disasters, it's gonna be so awesome.
Has there ever been a time when you felt, um, tempted? I don't want to talk about that.
I don't think it's appropriate.
I won't dwell on anything inappropriate if I can help it.
I'll take that as a yes.
I'm not gonna answer that question! We're going to seek that which is good and abhor that which is evil.
That's why we're not gonna dwell and tell you about every single sin we ever did in our life.
It's not sinful to get married.
If you wanted to do that, how do you do that? I don't think that'll ever happen.
- Why wouldn't that happen? - Are you kidding me?! Because I'm Jael Phelps and I serve God, that's why.
That's why.
And I'm not gonna go seeking after that, because it's foolishness.
Your father Jonathan got married.
Your grandfather, Gramps, he got married.
Shirley got married.
- Why should you be any different? - Louis we're living in the last of the last days.
Time is very short.
- Times are different than 15 years ago.
- There could be someone There could, but I'm not gonna plan it.
I'm not gonna seek after it and I'm not gonna dwell on it.
That's not my interest.
It's not my focus.
I'm a dumb, young girl, but I'm not that dumb and goofy to go This is so silly.
I don't wanna talk about it any more.
OK? So I don't wanna go there.
That afternoon, I had an appointment to see Steve Drain.
He was unusual in not having been born into the group.
- Hey! Are you Steve? - I am.
- How are you doing? - I'm doing good.
- I'm Louis.
- Hi, Louis As his service to the church, Steve handles online media and is an all-round helper to the man he now calls Gramps.
- You wanna see how we make signs? - The famous signs.
"God hates fags.
" But in his old life, I'd heard he and I had something in common.
Is it true that you first came here as a documentary film-maker? Yes.
You brought your family here from Florida? Are you glad you did that? Absolutely.
It's the only thing I can say I'm really glad that I did.
- Really? - Mm-hm.
Is Gramps a disciple of God? Anybody who is an ambassador from God, preaching a sincere message, is a prophet and Gramps is a prophet, as are all these other people here.
So these are some of the ones Some of these are kind of random? - They're not random.
- This one - Liz Taylor? - Course she's a fag lover.
Course she is! Desmond Tutu? How do you choose? He lies about the Scripture every time he opens his mouth! How do you choose who to make signs about? There's no logic here.
There's plenty of logic.
Anybody in the news who supports the filthy fag agenda, we'll make a sign about.
Did you feel this way about homosexuality before you came here? - No.
Of course not.
- What was your feeling? I embraced the philosophy of libertarianism.
I was a genius.
- It was OK to be gay? - I was a genius.
What is this? Look at this.
That's a little offensive.
- To who? - People in Britain consider her an icon.
She split Hell wide open when she died.
She's a fag enabler.
- Princess Diana? - She'll be in Hell for all of eternity.
- I can't believe my ears.
- Oh, my goodness gracious! In addition to the funeral pickets, the church also does a multitude of local pickets of churches and other targets chosen by the pastor.
So where are we actually going to now? We're going to a picket here at the Jew church.
- The? What did you say? - The Jew church.
- That sounds anti-Semitic.
- They hate God and worship the rectum.
- The rectum?! - Yeah, the rectum.
That sounds insane when you say that.
They worship that which they desire.
It makes them feel good.
It's an expression of the flesh.
- It's a metaphor? - Of course it is.
Idolatry, fornication, all manner of sexual perversion go hand in hand, Louis.
This is callous defiance against God Almighty.
The Jews killed christ.
You're gonna say they worship the same God as I do? - They killed christ.
- News flash, Brainiac, christ WAS Jewish.
I'm telling you, Brainiac, that christ was God.
They were living in a Jewish area, so Jewish people were involved, but a lot of them weren't.
- They called for his crucifixion.
- The Romans did it, not the Jews.
The Jews did it.
They live in callous defiance of the Scripture and I gotta warn 'em about it, Louis.
"Lift up thy voice like a trumpet "and show my people their transgressions.
" You see these wonderful signs, "God Hates Fags, Temple Beth Sodom, "Jew Fags, God Is USA's Terrorist"? These are wonderful signs.
"Fag Troops"? America God showed his wrath to me He cursed this land With his own hand And showed his sovereignty That evening, Steve invited me to drop in on a special taping of one of the church's online sermons Everything OK, Steve? hinting that there might be an opportunity to have my first face-to-face with Pastor Phelps.
- Everything OK up there? - Yeah, we just wanted to make sure we got our technical difficulties straightened.
- Steve, Steve, Steve Steve! - come on.
Where have you gone? Hello? - Where are you? - Here.
- All right - What is going on? - Yeah, yeah - Why don't you go ahead and? - Hi, guys.
- How do you do? I'm Louis.
- Hi, Louis.
- From the BBc.
- You must be Pastor Fred Phelps.
- Yes.
Glad to see you, Louis.
- What is happening? - Pay close attention.
Billy Graham, Hell-bound false prophet.
I've known Billy Graham more than 50 years and Billy, you are headed straight and irreversibly for Hell.
You are a lying, money-grubbing, Arminian heretic.
At 88, Graham will soon die and split Hell wide open.
And Westboro Baptist church will picket your funeral.
Amen.
- Thanks, Gramps.
That was awesome.
- OK, guys.
What do you want? You are basically the pastor of the church and the pater familias of the whole group.
Did you see that newspaper story down at the bottom of the stairs? No.
Steve was gonna give us a tour downstairs, then he was in a rush.
We've got a schedule to keep.
We're not here to cater to you.
This is a pretty big family.
How many children do you have? Don't bother me with that kind of silly question.
Get to some stuff that I'm the only one that can answer.
Then we'll have a good interview here.
Were we supposed to have an interview? - Can we have an interview? - Not now.
- Not now? - No, not now.
You were sayinghow many children you have? Let's go downstairs.
You already answered that question.
Everybody in the civilised world knows how many children I've got and grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
- Is he stalling for time? - Shall we go downstairs? - Yeah.
- Thank you for having us.
Sure.
Glad to see you guys.
There's the article he mentioned, Time magazine.
- Did that go OK? - Yeah.
What was the big deal about asking how many children? He would've answered a sincere, relevant, theological question.
That was a sincere question.
You can't fault me on that.
I was curious to know his answer to "how many children do you have".
You already know.
But I wanted to know how many he'd say that he had.
I know he had 13, but four have fallen away.
You know he has 13 and that four have fallen away.
There's your answer.
I wanted to hear what HE had to say about it.
He told you what he had to say.
You want us to say it in a certain way? I wanted to know how many he would say You have the guy who has by far, head and shoulders, more scriptural knowledge, knowledge of the Bible, the moral realm than anybody who has crawled over this Earth and you ask him a silly, dull question? - How many children do you have? - You're wasting your opportunity, dude.
'The next day and I joined Shirley 'as she did her afternoon school run.
' - Where are we going, Shirley? - To pick up the children.
I sensed how impregnable the church members' beliefs are.
I wanted to understand how that faith is instilled in the children.
They go to normal schools? I'm surprised they're not home-schooled.
There's two reasons that we can't do that.
The first one is, I couldn't do the job justice.
Secondly, these children need to be in the faces of this community.
That is part of our testimony.
- Do they preach at school at all? - No.
Only their presence.
Only like they're walking picket signs.
They see these kids and think, "God hates fags" or "America is doomed".
Do they have friends at school? They have friendly acquaintances.
I don't know if you'd call them friends.
I don't know what constitutes a friend.
They can bring them home? You think these kids want to come to our house? It's very nice.
Yeah.
Where would that go? Pretty quick you'll get into the discussions.
But that's how I met my husband.
He hung out with my brother.
Sounds like you haven't made up your own mind.
I'm saying that when they come around, they're welcome.
Could they bring girlfriends or boyfriends home? I will not have my kids calling themselves dating anyone or doing activities that resemble what this generation calls dating.
To what end would they do that? What would be the purpose? So they can fornicate? - Fun.
- Fun?! Does that equal fornicating? - Not necessarily.
- Well, what does it equal? Having fun, holding hands.
- Holding hands? No.
- Sending little notes to each other? How are you, Gabriel? So you can teach 'em how to fornicate later? So they can learn early? - You've got fornication on the brain! - That's what this generation's all about.
One of the pickets that afternoon was outside a hardware store that sells Swedish vacuum cleaners.
Apparently, Swedish authorities imprisoned a local pastor for preaching against homosexuality which was enough to make the whole nation a target.
I'd seen some of the youngest members of the clan hold placards.
I wondered how much of the message they understood.
- How old are you, Shirley? - Seven.
- Seven.
Do you know what the sign means? - No.
No?.
.
Shirley, she doesn't know what it means.
Fags, troops, flags, symbols, they're all idols that this nation worships above God.
Does that help you at all or have I said a lot of words that were too big? Maybe she's just making up numbers, because she doesn't really get it.
Noah, do you know what fag troops are? - Yeah.
- What? It's this nation.
All these fags.
It's a nation of fags.
That's what fag troops means.
It IS a nation of fags, yes.
Wait.
You're not gonna let him get away with that? - No, I'm not gonna - Fag soldiers! OK, fag soldiers.
I'm sort of glad that they don't understand it better.
Noah, do you know what else you could be, besides a fag, to be in trouble with God and be included in that sign? What else? Swedish? Um Swedish and and, um, soldiers and But if you're not a practising fag, what are you? What if you support fags? What does that make you? You're a dyke? You could say that you're grooming him into the weird behaviour that is characteristic of your group.
You could explain your moral outlook in a classroom.
Are you calling our service to our God weird behaviour? Yes.
You don't get to call our service to God weird and thereby make it so.
Your statement doesn't make it right, doesn't make it a fact.
- The world calls it weird.
- I don't care.
The world hates us.
Hello? The next morning I was with Megan.
Phelps family members are expected to hold down mainstream jobs and give 10% of their income to the church.
Many work as lawyers and Megan hoped to follow in that tradition.
- So where are we going? - We are going to Washburn.
- The university you go to.
- Yes.
Yes, it is.
It's lovely.
- Good stuff.
- Totally.
- Do you want to be a lawyer as well? - Yes, I do.
Like your aunts and uncles.
Yeah.
I'm the only one in my generation that wants to be a lawyer.
By now the church members had learned a little about my life and they knew I'd had a child with my partner out of wedlock, a detail which seemed to put me in the firing line.
Do you like going to the pickets? - Yeah.
Are you kidding? - It must get old, though.
You don't get tired of pursuing your sins and your lust.
- Do I? - I say you don't.
- Don't I? - Because you keep doing it! - Me, specifically? - You OR anybody else.
You serve your lust, I serve my God.
So should I be killed for having extra-marital intercourse? - According to the Mosaic code? - Yeah.
Actually, I'm not sure.
I think so.
- I know adultery is.
- Wow.
And homosexuality was.
You want to see me killed for that.
- I want to tell you the truth.
- This is interesting.
- This is where you go to college.
- Yes.
- You don't have friends here? - No.
I have acquaintances, people I go to school with.
They're not my friends.
- Do you have acquaintances you like? - On a humanistic level? That are friendly? Yeah.
- Any guys? - Yes.
What do you want me to say? If you saw a guy in one of your classes and thought he seemed nice and had potential, and he said, "Want to get a coffee?" what would you do? That has happened before.
I said, "Sorry, I'm busy.
" - Why? - I have other things to do.
- What was his name? - I don't even remember.
- You do.
- Yeah, he was Yeah - What? - Robert.
- Robert? - Robert.
ErI think.
- Is that someone you know? - No.
He looks like the guy that asked me out.
Ugh! It's kind of gooey, isn't it, but I know young women sometimes think about these things.
Most women also have a whole lot of lust and fornication and do a lot of things that we don't do.
Why put it like that? Why not say "make love"? Because you're trying to make it seem like something it isn't.
That's not what these people do, what you're doing.
- How do you mean? - cos you're not married.
Get married.
You seriously wouldn't mind if you never got married and never experienced everything that represents? - No.
- It wouldn't bother you.
- No.
- On a human level it would.
You think so? It shakes it up when there's more than one! And so my days at the church wore on.
I could feel myself being absorbed into the family.
Ahh! As hateful as they could be at the pickets, among themselves their life was quite appealing, almost as though their bond with each other had been strengthened by the hostility of the outside world.
With the girls I began to see a more human side to them.
Go see Fred! What did you say? I said, "Are you kidding me?! Who's going to marry US?" And it was easy to become desensitised to their message and how provocative it really is.
See, they covered their licence plates.
I don't know what they were up to.
Did they hit somebody? - Yeah.
- Is he OK? Is he OK? I'm sorry, hon.
They had the licence plate down.
You all right, honey? - Hey, bud.
- You got it all over.
Hey, bud, I'm sorry, honey.
I knew they had done something.
I am so sorry.
You want to go talk to your daddy? Hey, hey, you want your sign? Let me wipe that off of you, OK? I'm sorry.
Megan, can you? They are such cowards.
Who would hit a child? Who would do that? - It looks like here, Tim.
- I know His eyes.
Do you see that colour? That's what was in that cup.
It obviously got around on him.
Seeing seven-year-old Elisha get hit by a drink was a reminder that among the victims of the Phelps' were their own children.
It was Sunday and I'd been invited along to a church service.
It would be another chance to meet the pastor and maybe have an interview.
Are the bags over there? But first I had an appointment to help with chores around the homestead.
Do you see much of Gramps? - Sometimes on Monday and Tuesday.
- I haven't seen that much of him.
I think he's gotten tired of you guys.
- How can he be tired of us? - You and your impertinent questions.
He doesn't have much patience for people asking a bunch of questions that aren't relevant to the ministry.
You know, when we were at your house and you said I was going to Hell, - you found that funny.
- I did.
Why? Thinking on those things, it brings me pleasure to think that the Lord WILL vindicate his people.
He will carry out his wrath because he is perfect.
It doesn't make me happy to think of YOU burning in Hell.
- OK.
- Does that make me a better person? No! You know God because he sends the wicked to Hell and he saves the righteous.
That's comforting to think on.
Why couldn't you feel sad that I was going to Hell? Because it's according to God's will.
- So you rejoice in all his judgments? - Exactly.
Very good point.
If you got run over by a car, would your dad be pleased? If I got run over by a car I would be in Hell and my dad would be pleased.
- Really? - Really.
I'm serious.
And we have to move on.
- That's crazy.
- In your thinking it's crazy.
It's good.
come on.
A little later, I joined the rest of the church members in the family chapel for my first experience of one of Gramps' services.
He will be waiting for me Jesus so kind and true After that day is through.
Is it true that if I do something wrong, Gramps could go loco? - He'll just tell you not to do it.
- Would it be embarrassing for him? - For you.
- Why? There's no experience quite like it.
Same-sex marriage, by any name, civil union or otherwise, is the ultimate smash-mouth, in-your-face insult to God Almighty.
You think he's gonna let England and America get by with it? God Almighty has not joined fags in holy wedlock.
God no longer keeps America safe.
America's doomed.
Getting the pants beat off of us in Iraq.
And Afghanistan.
God is now America's terrorist.
That's who Bush is fighting.
That's the terrorist that he best be afraid of.
You tweaked his nose, you jackass! You tweaked his nose! God put it in your wicked heart to start that war! That's the message we got at the funerals of these dead soldiers.
God duped you into starting a war so he could punish you.
Any preacher preaching in any other way is a lying, hell-bound false prophet! It's almost 18 months now and this siege has got people eating their babies.
And their small children.
And each other! You're gonna eat your babies! God himself duped Bush into a no-win war and he did that by the technique of putting a lying spirit in the mouth of all his trusted advisers.
To punish America.
This will make at least two million.
At least two million.
Maybe three or four million.
Pastor, would there be five minutes for a couple of questions? - Well, uh Yeah, five minutes.
Shoot.
- OK.
I was struck by your preaching.
You referred mainly to Old Testament.
It was as if you feel we are living in a time of Biblical prophecy.
- Is that accurate? - No, it's not accurate.
If you had just a little knowledge of the Bible, you'd know that what you just said is stupidity in spades.
I don't know how to deal with a question like that.
You're just too dumb.
Sorry.
You've got a duty to know the Bible as well as I do.
- Why? - Because you're a human being.
God Almighty made ya and he will send your ass to Hell.
Is it accurate to say that you regard the Westboro Baptist church as the only church that's preaching according to the word of God? Is the three minutes up? The answer to your question is yes.
- It was five minutes.
- But I already talked two, didn't I? So there's three left? Do you believe your preaching is the only preaching according to the word of God? Asked and answered.
Next question.
As far as you're concerned, are the people of this church the only ones now living that will make it to the Kingdom of Heaven? Asked and answered.
Next question.
- Is there something you'd like me to ask? - Nope.
I didn't wanna talk to you or even let you in.
Isn't it an act of presumption that when you don't have all the information about all the other churches to assume you have privileged access to grace? I know all there is to know about them.
- How? - I won't keep talking.
Didn't Steve Drain tell you that you'd wasted an opportunity and they'd probably fire you? - You don't know anything about me.
- I know all there is to know.
You're just an evil I don't wanna go there.
- OK, this is about 15 minutes! - Thank you for your time.
Nice to see you.
And good luck to you.
OK, guys.
Did you come to carry some stuff? God hates fags! God hates fag enablers! Therefore God hates America and all of her military! The abominable, disgraceful, filthy conduct that you think of to engage in, you do it and you're proud of it.
Quit worshipping the flag, dummy! It can't help you.
I'd sensed a deep wellspring of anger in Gramps and I suspected this was the basis for his church's ministry.
His skewed interpretation of the Bible had been handed on to his children and was now broadcast to the world.
The Phelps had no interest in winning souls to christ.
Being hated was proof that they were doing the right thing.
As part of their effort to reach every corner of America, they had decided to picket a soldier's funeral several hundred miles away outside Chicago in Skokie, Illinois.
For one last time, I joined them.
So, um, you're flying all the way to Illinois Yes.
however many there are of you, just to picket this dead soldier's funeral? That's right.
- For 45 minutes.
- Yep.
- Is it really worth it? - Yeah! They'll get the message.
You see what it's created around this nation.
Good morning.
I'm gonna sit in the second row unless somebody else is there.
Where am I supposed to sit? How much would you say the church spends in an average year on flights? - A lot.
- How much? - It's in the 200,000 range.
- Really? $200,000.
That's more than maybe Ë100,000.
Yeah, I don't know the ratio.
Just to go and spread hate? - No, to go and preach the gospel.
- God's hate.
I didn't say your hate.
- It's very scriptural what I said.
- Actually, that's true.
"His unit was supposed to end its service in Iraq in August, "but one day before Foyteck was scheduled to leave, "he got news that it would be sent to Baghdad.
"He told his family he'd be home in November instead "and his mother mailed him his cell phone "so he would be able to call.
"Foyteck, 26, died two days before Hallowe'en, "shot in the neck by insurgents during a raid on a house near Baghdad.
"In addition to his mother, "he is survived by his father, a brother christopher "and grandparents.
" Doesn't that make you sad? It's very sad that they won't get the message.
All they have to do is obey their God and they'll stop the pain, but they're not going to.
- But that's abstract - It's not! It's so concrete.
We don't know anything more than this about Kraig Foyteck.
No, we know two things.
He's been killed, therefore he was doing something sinful.
He was fighting for a nation who has made God their enemy.
There's no good people in the military? It's all very plain and simple.
You will not make me feel bad.
I did not do THAT.
I'm doing this to help them.
Is there any danger of you feeling bad about it? Is there any danger? You say that almost as though I got through to you.
No, you didn't.
But you keep grinding away.
You view things through what you see and those things, the Scripture says, are temporal.
They'll fade away.
If God is infinitely wise and powerful and omniscient, then he could bring a soldier up to Heaven if he felt like it.
Listen to you! This nation thinks they are all-powerful, almighty and those young men and women You think that about your church.
You're right.
We do have power and the power comes from our God.
We have all the power.
Stay tuned.
Shortly, he'll come through the clouds and execute judgment on them.
Isn't it possible that the funeral is for a good man, a righteous and a nice person, who doesn't deserve to have his funeral picketed? Not a chance, poopy pants.
All right.
Oh, wicked land of sodomites At the funeral, I decided to break away from the picket and go inside the memorial home to see the mourners first hand.
He was doing what he wanted to do.
I have to honour that, as much as I miss him and don't think it's fair.
But he was doing what he believes and what he wanted.
Kraig wanted to go in the army after high school, so he did what he wanted to do.
He did.
We just have to carry on his memory and his honour through other soldiers and help other families.
Seeing the mourners brought home the reality of the grief but I realised I'd got as far as I could with Shirley.
Louis, you're going to Hell.
Try as I might, nothing I said made any impact on her beliefs.
Back in Topeka, and while we've been away a local Episcopalian church and target of pickets had caught fire.
For the Phelps, it was another sign of God's judgment and a reason to rejoice.
- You want to get a sign, Louis? - To hold? I don't think I can do that.
Yeah.
I was nearing the end of my time in the group.
I'd made no headway with Shirley, but tried my fellow documentary-maker, Steve Drain.
Now that I've come to the end of my time here, are you curious to hear my thoughts? I'd love to.
Go ahead.
I spent a little bit of time with the Pastor and I think maybe he's got a lot of anger.
Maybe he's a rage-aholic.
But perhaps his ministry is human-focused, not God-focused.
The Bible's a pretty long book, but if you pick and choose, you can justify almost any behaviour.
When I say God hates fags, OK, that's not the whole message that we have.
That's the front-burner issue, the elephant in the room that nobody else talks about.
That's not the only piece of evidence for my argument.
The whole idea that Westboro Baptist church, the 75 of us that are here, are the only ones going to Heaven.
Everyone else is Hell bound.
If there was somebody else out there preaching the unvarnished word of God, from cover to cover, we would have heard about them.
From the New Testament, Jesus christ seems to be a gentle spirit.
- If he did come back - He'd be holding this sign.
- rather than - I'm trying to tell you.
He'd be picketed by your church.
- I seriously believe that.
- You are seriously deluded.
- I'm preaching what the Bible says.
- You preach what your dark heart says.
I'm willing to talk with you, but you're just being silly.
- I'm not.
- Of course you are.
- Want a ride back? - I'm not being silly.
I don't think you have the truth.
You're running away from it.
You're just trying to turn yourself into God by saying things ought to be this way, or thus and such.
You are the one who has the God complex, Louis, not me.
- But I don't claim absolute truth.
- I don't claim it of myself.
The idea that you pick and choose.
These people, we'll be nice to them, - but not to those other ones.
- Have you ever seen me be mean? - Not you specifically.
The church.
- I am the church.
Did you rejoice when that church burned down? You're supposed to rejoice over ALL of God's judgments.
- You rejoice when soldiers die in Iraq? - Absolutely I do.
When people are knocked over by cars and get cancer? Absolutely.
I love it.
It's the righteous judgment of God Almighty.
come on.
My time among the hatemongers of Westboro Baptist church was done.
I'd expected to meet a group that causes pain to people in the outside world, but I'd been surprised to find that the members of the church are also paying a price themselves.
Shut off from the world, they preach a hatred that reflects back at them, confirming their beliefs and ultimately denying the right to a normal life to their youngest members.
' - Are we going to go in my car? - Yeah.
Mom, they're here.
They want to go for a coffee drink.
No.
She said no.
OK.
- We have coffee in our house.
- OK.
Have a coffee here.
All right? - How come we couldn't go out? - I don't know.
- How's it going? - Good.
Most 21-year-olds if they wanted to go out for coffee would be able to do that without their parents' permission.
That's true.
But I'm special! I listen to what my parents say.
I respect my parents, so Is it possible that you are grappling with more, um than the other women here? No.
What are you talking about? I sense there's a little bit more inner tension in you.
- Inner tension? - Yeah.
A little bit.
Oh, no.
People who watch us will be thinking there's a very nice, charming, attractive woman and it would be nice to see her maybe opening her mind a little bit and moving out into the world and maybe thinking in a few years of starting a family.
- Why does everybody have to get married? - Well, no-one has to.
But why shouldn't everybody have the choice? - I have the choice.
- You do and you don't.
It seems that it is so inculcated in you that the outside world is this devilish, satanic place that, as you said yourself, - there's really no-one for you to go to.
- Yeah.
Who wouldeven want to marry someone that serves God? I don't blame you for being born into a situation outside your control and I can also see that you're coming to a time in your life where you might start to question some of those things.
That time has come and gone.
I've already reached the age where I have made the decision of what I want to do in this life.
Did you have a rebellious few years? Louis, if I ever was rebellious, do you think I would tell you about it? I'm ashamed of any nonsense that I've ever done.
When we started picketing, when I was First Grade Six years old.
People have been treating me the way you see us being treated now since I was that young, so people didn't treat me right.
What did they do? Well, nobody wanted to talk to me at school.
And, um, they were ashamed to be around me.
- You know that sense of being ostracised? - Uh-huh.
If you preach that the world is hateful, and full of condemned sinners, then the world will start to take that shape.
Well, it's very simple.
We read the scriptures and we tell people what the standard is.
We don't do violence to people.
We, um warn them that their sins are taking them to Hell.
We do a courteous, loving thing to them.
That's courteous and loving.
And they hate us.
And theybeat on us.
And they don't want anything to do with us.
They're just downright mean to us sometimes, you know? What did we do to them? Nothing but a courtesy.
So - That's quite a weird kind of courtesy.
- How is it weird? Going to funerals and waving those placards.
We preach to the living, we warn them.
That's what we're doing.
Are you afraid of going to Hell? Um, I fear the wrath of God.
I fear, um, going to Hell.
But Icertainly hope I won't go there.
I think you laughed at the idea of me in Hell because maybe it made you feel that you weren't going to Hell.
I laughed at the thought of you going to Hell because I know you, Louis, and you're a scoffer and a mocker.
It gives me pleasure to know that the Lord will vindicate his people and he will glorify his own name.
That's all this is about.
Glorifying God.
So That's why I smiled.
- I haven't scoffed at you.
- Let's get out to the picket.
- Rules that you should obey.
- Did you do it for me? Yeah, so you can carry it around, so you can know all the rules of obeying God.
Don't kill people.
Don't marry two people.
Don't lie.
I think everyone lies some in their life.
Maybe when they're a kid.
Don't act like a snake.
More especially you, I guess.
Actually, all of these Louis does.
What does that mean? Act like a snake? I can't remember.
Hey! You gave us that No, Noah.
Don't say that.
Like a snake? You clarify for him.
Yeah.
Don't act like a snake.
Then it says, "Don't be sneaky".
- He's clarifying for you already.
- Yeah.
I've been living among members of the Westboro Baptist church And proclaim God's word today a fire-and-brimstone christian group made up almost entirely of a single family.
God hates the USA Welcome to our picket! Since the Iraq War, they've picketed dead soldiers' funerals in protest against an America that tolerates homosexuality.
America is doomed! God hates fags! Are you a homosexual? Are you or not? We're servants of the living God.
That's all that matters.
The Westboro Baptist church is probably the most controversial church in America.
Hush up! Hush up and obey your God! For three weeks, I'd try to fathom why they'd created such a strange ministry.
What's this one? Is this in the Bible? - Fags eat faeces.
That's a fact, hon! The church is situated in a suburb of Topeka, Kansas.
Its pastor is the family patriarch Fred Phelps, also known as Gramps.
- Hi.
- Hi there.
- You must be Shirley.
- Yes.
- I'm Louis.
- Hi, Louis But the day-to-day operations are now run by the pastor's daughter, Shirley, a lawyer and mother to 11 children.
- So this is an office area? - Yes.
So these are your signs.
- You've got "God hates fags" here.
- And "God hates you".
Don't think of fags as just those guys who are taking it up the tailpipe.
Think of it as people who are involved in some perverted sex act.
I'm talking about anything other than one man, one woman in their marriage bed.
So beneath that, are there gradations of iniquity, as it were? If you see a nation or a people who have risen up with one voice to say that it's OK to be gay, they are a doomed people, they have crossed the line.
When you say "gay pride", you have given over any notion that you're gonna admit that you're sinning.
You understand that? Being gay is an innocent, alternate lifestyle? That's what I believe.
Then you can't say then you believe it's not a sin.
Yes.
So YOU condemn yourself, cos by your words are you justified, and by your words are you condemned.
But am I right in thinking it wasn't a big thing for Jesus? He had other priorities rather than homosexuality.
It's not one of the Ten commandments, is it? Er, yes.
- Which one? - "Thou shalt not commit adultery.
" That's not being gay.
That's cheating on someone.
The streets of this nation are full of married men having fag sex.
That's adultery.
So don't try to pretend that you don't come under the umbrella of adultery just because you're a fag.
- Hi, guys.
- Hi.
- Hi.
- This is Gabriel.
How do you do? Go put your stuff awayThis is Grace.
For the last few years, the church has taken its message of God's hate to the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, reasoning that they were struck down by God for fighting for a depraved and doomed nation.
What is the plan today? We'll get out here and put these signs in the air.
At the funeral? You can call it that, but they're worshipping the dead.
You do research into the soldiers that have died? Staff-Sergeant Kevin Zeigler.
He died of an IED.
- That's a - Roadside bomb.
Right, an improvised explosive device.
Exactly.
His family was told that he and another soldier died while trying to disable the explosive.
He was 31.
Do you think it's possible that by getting in people's faces in this way, you're more likely to put people off the word of Jesus christ and the Bible? Ohh! Just in terms of human psychology? You think our job is to win souls to christ.
By getting in their face and putting signs in front of them, we just make what was already in their heart come out of their mouth.
- What do you really think? - This is what I really think.
But there's a part of you that doesn't think that? No, there's not any part of me.
- The commandment has gone forth.
- Why go down there? America is doomed.
- Because we are the evil angels.
- EVIL angels? Exactly.
Not because we're evil people, but we're bringing the message of the evil that God has determined upon you.
Once we deliver that - I thought God didn't do evil? - My goodness! come on, guys.
Let's get outta here.
Let's bail! This is our corner.
come on, little boys! Zach, hop in in case he wants you I'm gonna keep a bit of a distance, cos I'm not part of the picket.
- That's OK.
- You know what I mean? - I'm just here as a journalist - Yes.
- Shirley? - Yes.
Today's picket was at an intersection near a church in Kansas city, Missouri.
Among the picketers was the pastor's wife, though of the pastor himself there was no sign.
Like many states, Missouri has established strict regulations to try and limit the Phelps' contact with the bereaved and I was relieved to see how far from the funeral the church members had to be.
God hates America! America is doomed! - This is shameful.
- Yeah.
- Right down shameful.
- Yeah, hon.
You've got little kids like this You obviously raised your brat for the devil, your big gluttonous brat for the devil! - And you're going to Hell.
- I don't agree with the lifestyle.
- Yes, you do.
- No, I don't.
Yes, you do.
You love fags, you hate God, so just shut up! What was he talking about? "I don't agree with fags, but que sera sera" - Fuck you! - You think you can fix this with that? You think you're gonna change God? You know why you're there, you fucking bitch? Because you are a rebellious brat! That's why! I mean, I've only been out here 25 minutes or so, but so far the reaction has been approximately 100% negative.
- Would you agree? - Yeah.
Is there another way of delivering the message, like a letter of consolation to the soldier's family? We do letters all the time, but not consolation.
You angered the Lord Your God and now he's cursed your family! There's no consolation there.
They're not gonna have any consolation.
As a picket today, how would you rate this, marks out of ten? Hon, they're all tens.
All of them.
Would you say ten out of ten as well, Jacob? Yeah, God did this, therefore it's perfect.
Does everything get ten out of ten? - Yeah.
- Thank God for all of his judgments.
Not one word falls to the ground.
A little later, Shirley and I regrouped at the family homestead where most of the 70 or so churchgoers live.
So this is the centre of the headquarters right here? You can call it that.
- What would you call it? - My back yard.
But it's also the back yards of all these other houses.
There's real lines of demarcation, but we took the fences down for the children.
You don't live communally with the other members of the church? No.
No, no, no.
Where does Pastor Phelps, the patriarch, live? - On that second floor.
- Up there? In that building you've got the house part to this side and the church part to that side.
Have you wondered if you might be part of a cult? What do you have to be to qualify as a cult? It's a fringe religious group that exercises an inordinate amount of control over its members.
You have to have other things also.
Brainwashing and a charismatic leader at the top? Maybe Fred Phelps, your father, could qualify.
I don't care about all that nonsense.
We're the ones who are adhering to the doctrines of faith of all the mainline religions.
They're not.
We are.
So what else you got? To help her run the ministry, Shirley relies on her two eldest daughters, Megan and Bekah.
This is Bekah's room, OK.
I don't see any posters of pop bands.
No.
- Can we look in your closet? - I guess you can.
- You have quite a lot of clothes.
- Yeah, pretty much.
- Are there rules about what you can wear? - Modesty.
Our parents don't have to tell us.
We know what we can wear.
- We know what's appropriate.
- How do the girls at your school dress? One word - whore.
- Do you agree? Same way? - Yeah.
What do other people at your school think of you? - They hate us, but we're nice to them.
- Why do they hate you? Because they hate the message.
We tell them, "You can't live the way you're living and go to Heaven.
" - Shall we do the next room? - Yes.
So, basically, your circle of friends is mainly or exclusively limited to people who are part of this church? Yeah.
Do you have any friends outside this group? No true friends.
Friendship with the world is enmity with God.
- May I ask if you've had boyfriends? - No, we haven't.
No.
Why not? Because in this life we're not about serving ourselves.
It's a temptation that's not needed and it takes up time we don't have.
When you come on with a lot of this stuff about the Bible, some people might think you're arrogant.
If they're offended by the judgments that we make, that we make according to God's standard, that is a clear indication that they hate God's word, and that they're headed for Hell.
We're marching, we're marching We are marching, Lord We're marching, we're marching We're marching to Zion, Lord We're marching to Zion The end of my first day at the church and during a choir practice, I had a moment to reflect.
.
.
The beautiful city of God I felt I had been bombarded with religious rhetoric and it was preventing me from getting to know the church members as people.
With the girls especially, I sensed there was another side to their story and I was curious to know more.
Beautiful Beautiful city A beautiful city Of Go-o-o-o-od! The next day and I was on my way to see Jael Phelps, niece to Shirley, cousin to Megan and Bekah, and in her day job, a nurse in training.
It would be a chance to meet another of the younger women and to ask about family members no longer in the church, having run off or been excluded.
- How are you doing? - Good.
- Can we come in? - Uh-huh.
- Can you show us around? - This is the computer study area.
This is a picture of the girls in the church when they were younger.
- Let's see that.
- Mm-hm.
- Who's that? - Cathy.
- She's gone? - Yes.
And who's that? This is Betty, this is Fred Junior's wife.
This is my Aunt Liz.
This is Dot.
- She's gone? - Right.
This is Becky.
That's my grandma.
This is her daughter Sharon who has also gone.
- Is everyone else gonna stay? - Everybody else? - Yeah.
- As far as we know.
- I think so.
- Are you gonna stay? Yes.
- Do you like it? - I love it.
- Do you? - Yes, I really do.
As far as you're concerned, those people that have gone away, - they're going to Hell? - Yeah.
- What if you don't believe in the Bible? - You're going to go to Hell.
- So I'm going to Hell? - Yes, Louis, you're going to Hell.
You are.
Anyway, this is my room.
Ta-da! There's pictures everywhere.
- What is this one? - You like it? Yeah.
It's the Wrath of God as revealed from Heaven.
Do you think that's what it might look like when the Scripture is fulfilled? That kind of thing, natural disasters, it's gonna be so awesome.
Has there ever been a time when you felt, um, tempted? I don't want to talk about that.
I don't think it's appropriate.
I won't dwell on anything inappropriate if I can help it.
I'll take that as a yes.
I'm not gonna answer that question! We're going to seek that which is good and abhor that which is evil.
That's why we're not gonna dwell and tell you about every single sin we ever did in our life.
It's not sinful to get married.
If you wanted to do that, how do you do that? I don't think that'll ever happen.
- Why wouldn't that happen? - Are you kidding me?! Because I'm Jael Phelps and I serve God, that's why.
That's why.
And I'm not gonna go seeking after that, because it's foolishness.
Your father Jonathan got married.
Your grandfather, Gramps, he got married.
Shirley got married.
- Why should you be any different? - Louis we're living in the last of the last days.
Time is very short.
- Times are different than 15 years ago.
- There could be someone There could, but I'm not gonna plan it.
I'm not gonna seek after it and I'm not gonna dwell on it.
That's not my interest.
It's not my focus.
I'm a dumb, young girl, but I'm not that dumb and goofy to go This is so silly.
I don't wanna talk about it any more.
OK? So I don't wanna go there.
That afternoon, I had an appointment to see Steve Drain.
He was unusual in not having been born into the group.
- Hey! Are you Steve? - I am.
- How are you doing? - I'm doing good.
- I'm Louis.
- Hi, Louis As his service to the church, Steve handles online media and is an all-round helper to the man he now calls Gramps.
- You wanna see how we make signs? - The famous signs.
"God hates fags.
" But in his old life, I'd heard he and I had something in common.
Is it true that you first came here as a documentary film-maker? Yes.
You brought your family here from Florida? Are you glad you did that? Absolutely.
It's the only thing I can say I'm really glad that I did.
- Really? - Mm-hm.
Is Gramps a disciple of God? Anybody who is an ambassador from God, preaching a sincere message, is a prophet and Gramps is a prophet, as are all these other people here.
So these are some of the ones Some of these are kind of random? - They're not random.
- This one - Liz Taylor? - Course she's a fag lover.
Course she is! Desmond Tutu? How do you choose? He lies about the Scripture every time he opens his mouth! How do you choose who to make signs about? There's no logic here.
There's plenty of logic.
Anybody in the news who supports the filthy fag agenda, we'll make a sign about.
Did you feel this way about homosexuality before you came here? - No.
Of course not.
- What was your feeling? I embraced the philosophy of libertarianism.
I was a genius.
- It was OK to be gay? - I was a genius.
What is this? Look at this.
That's a little offensive.
- To who? - People in Britain consider her an icon.
She split Hell wide open when she died.
She's a fag enabler.
- Princess Diana? - She'll be in Hell for all of eternity.
- I can't believe my ears.
- Oh, my goodness gracious! In addition to the funeral pickets, the church also does a multitude of local pickets of churches and other targets chosen by the pastor.
So where are we actually going to now? We're going to a picket here at the Jew church.
- The? What did you say? - The Jew church.
- That sounds anti-Semitic.
- They hate God and worship the rectum.
- The rectum?! - Yeah, the rectum.
That sounds insane when you say that.
They worship that which they desire.
It makes them feel good.
It's an expression of the flesh.
- It's a metaphor? - Of course it is.
Idolatry, fornication, all manner of sexual perversion go hand in hand, Louis.
This is callous defiance against God Almighty.
The Jews killed christ.
You're gonna say they worship the same God as I do? - They killed christ.
- News flash, Brainiac, christ WAS Jewish.
I'm telling you, Brainiac, that christ was God.
They were living in a Jewish area, so Jewish people were involved, but a lot of them weren't.
- They called for his crucifixion.
- The Romans did it, not the Jews.
The Jews did it.
They live in callous defiance of the Scripture and I gotta warn 'em about it, Louis.
"Lift up thy voice like a trumpet "and show my people their transgressions.
" You see these wonderful signs, "God Hates Fags, Temple Beth Sodom, "Jew Fags, God Is USA's Terrorist"? These are wonderful signs.
"Fag Troops"? America God showed his wrath to me He cursed this land With his own hand And showed his sovereignty That evening, Steve invited me to drop in on a special taping of one of the church's online sermons Everything OK, Steve? hinting that there might be an opportunity to have my first face-to-face with Pastor Phelps.
- Everything OK up there? - Yeah, we just wanted to make sure we got our technical difficulties straightened.
- Steve, Steve, Steve Steve! - come on.
Where have you gone? Hello? - Where are you? - Here.
- All right - What is going on? - Yeah, yeah - Why don't you go ahead and? - Hi, guys.
- How do you do? I'm Louis.
- Hi, Louis.
- From the BBc.
- You must be Pastor Fred Phelps.
- Yes.
Glad to see you, Louis.
- What is happening? - Pay close attention.
Billy Graham, Hell-bound false prophet.
I've known Billy Graham more than 50 years and Billy, you are headed straight and irreversibly for Hell.
You are a lying, money-grubbing, Arminian heretic.
At 88, Graham will soon die and split Hell wide open.
And Westboro Baptist church will picket your funeral.
Amen.
- Thanks, Gramps.
That was awesome.
- OK, guys.
What do you want? You are basically the pastor of the church and the pater familias of the whole group.
Did you see that newspaper story down at the bottom of the stairs? No.
Steve was gonna give us a tour downstairs, then he was in a rush.
We've got a schedule to keep.
We're not here to cater to you.
This is a pretty big family.
How many children do you have? Don't bother me with that kind of silly question.
Get to some stuff that I'm the only one that can answer.
Then we'll have a good interview here.
Were we supposed to have an interview? - Can we have an interview? - Not now.
- Not now? - No, not now.
You were sayinghow many children you have? Let's go downstairs.
You already answered that question.
Everybody in the civilised world knows how many children I've got and grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
- Is he stalling for time? - Shall we go downstairs? - Yeah.
- Thank you for having us.
Sure.
Glad to see you guys.
There's the article he mentioned, Time magazine.
- Did that go OK? - Yeah.
What was the big deal about asking how many children? He would've answered a sincere, relevant, theological question.
That was a sincere question.
You can't fault me on that.
I was curious to know his answer to "how many children do you have".
You already know.
But I wanted to know how many he'd say that he had.
I know he had 13, but four have fallen away.
You know he has 13 and that four have fallen away.
There's your answer.
I wanted to hear what HE had to say about it.
He told you what he had to say.
You want us to say it in a certain way? I wanted to know how many he would say You have the guy who has by far, head and shoulders, more scriptural knowledge, knowledge of the Bible, the moral realm than anybody who has crawled over this Earth and you ask him a silly, dull question? - How many children do you have? - You're wasting your opportunity, dude.
'The next day and I joined Shirley 'as she did her afternoon school run.
' - Where are we going, Shirley? - To pick up the children.
I sensed how impregnable the church members' beliefs are.
I wanted to understand how that faith is instilled in the children.
They go to normal schools? I'm surprised they're not home-schooled.
There's two reasons that we can't do that.
The first one is, I couldn't do the job justice.
Secondly, these children need to be in the faces of this community.
That is part of our testimony.
- Do they preach at school at all? - No.
Only their presence.
Only like they're walking picket signs.
They see these kids and think, "God hates fags" or "America is doomed".
Do they have friends at school? They have friendly acquaintances.
I don't know if you'd call them friends.
I don't know what constitutes a friend.
They can bring them home? You think these kids want to come to our house? It's very nice.
Yeah.
Where would that go? Pretty quick you'll get into the discussions.
But that's how I met my husband.
He hung out with my brother.
Sounds like you haven't made up your own mind.
I'm saying that when they come around, they're welcome.
Could they bring girlfriends or boyfriends home? I will not have my kids calling themselves dating anyone or doing activities that resemble what this generation calls dating.
To what end would they do that? What would be the purpose? So they can fornicate? - Fun.
- Fun?! Does that equal fornicating? - Not necessarily.
- Well, what does it equal? Having fun, holding hands.
- Holding hands? No.
- Sending little notes to each other? How are you, Gabriel? So you can teach 'em how to fornicate later? So they can learn early? - You've got fornication on the brain! - That's what this generation's all about.
One of the pickets that afternoon was outside a hardware store that sells Swedish vacuum cleaners.
Apparently, Swedish authorities imprisoned a local pastor for preaching against homosexuality which was enough to make the whole nation a target.
I'd seen some of the youngest members of the clan hold placards.
I wondered how much of the message they understood.
- How old are you, Shirley? - Seven.
- Seven.
Do you know what the sign means? - No.
No?.
.
Shirley, she doesn't know what it means.
Fags, troops, flags, symbols, they're all idols that this nation worships above God.
Does that help you at all or have I said a lot of words that were too big? Maybe she's just making up numbers, because she doesn't really get it.
Noah, do you know what fag troops are? - Yeah.
- What? It's this nation.
All these fags.
It's a nation of fags.
That's what fag troops means.
It IS a nation of fags, yes.
Wait.
You're not gonna let him get away with that? - No, I'm not gonna - Fag soldiers! OK, fag soldiers.
I'm sort of glad that they don't understand it better.
Noah, do you know what else you could be, besides a fag, to be in trouble with God and be included in that sign? What else? Swedish? Um Swedish and and, um, soldiers and But if you're not a practising fag, what are you? What if you support fags? What does that make you? You're a dyke? You could say that you're grooming him into the weird behaviour that is characteristic of your group.
You could explain your moral outlook in a classroom.
Are you calling our service to our God weird behaviour? Yes.
You don't get to call our service to God weird and thereby make it so.
Your statement doesn't make it right, doesn't make it a fact.
- The world calls it weird.
- I don't care.
The world hates us.
Hello? The next morning I was with Megan.
Phelps family members are expected to hold down mainstream jobs and give 10% of their income to the church.
Many work as lawyers and Megan hoped to follow in that tradition.
- So where are we going? - We are going to Washburn.
- The university you go to.
- Yes.
Yes, it is.
It's lovely.
- Good stuff.
- Totally.
- Do you want to be a lawyer as well? - Yes, I do.
Like your aunts and uncles.
Yeah.
I'm the only one in my generation that wants to be a lawyer.
By now the church members had learned a little about my life and they knew I'd had a child with my partner out of wedlock, a detail which seemed to put me in the firing line.
Do you like going to the pickets? - Yeah.
Are you kidding? - It must get old, though.
You don't get tired of pursuing your sins and your lust.
- Do I? - I say you don't.
- Don't I? - Because you keep doing it! - Me, specifically? - You OR anybody else.
You serve your lust, I serve my God.
So should I be killed for having extra-marital intercourse? - According to the Mosaic code? - Yeah.
Actually, I'm not sure.
I think so.
- I know adultery is.
- Wow.
And homosexuality was.
You want to see me killed for that.
- I want to tell you the truth.
- This is interesting.
- This is where you go to college.
- Yes.
- You don't have friends here? - No.
I have acquaintances, people I go to school with.
They're not my friends.
- Do you have acquaintances you like? - On a humanistic level? That are friendly? Yeah.
- Any guys? - Yes.
What do you want me to say? If you saw a guy in one of your classes and thought he seemed nice and had potential, and he said, "Want to get a coffee?" what would you do? That has happened before.
I said, "Sorry, I'm busy.
" - Why? - I have other things to do.
- What was his name? - I don't even remember.
- You do.
- Yeah, he was Yeah - What? - Robert.
- Robert? - Robert.
ErI think.
- Is that someone you know? - No.
He looks like the guy that asked me out.
Ugh! It's kind of gooey, isn't it, but I know young women sometimes think about these things.
Most women also have a whole lot of lust and fornication and do a lot of things that we don't do.
Why put it like that? Why not say "make love"? Because you're trying to make it seem like something it isn't.
That's not what these people do, what you're doing.
- How do you mean? - cos you're not married.
Get married.
You seriously wouldn't mind if you never got married and never experienced everything that represents? - No.
- It wouldn't bother you.
- No.
- On a human level it would.
You think so? It shakes it up when there's more than one! And so my days at the church wore on.
I could feel myself being absorbed into the family.
Ahh! As hateful as they could be at the pickets, among themselves their life was quite appealing, almost as though their bond with each other had been strengthened by the hostility of the outside world.
With the girls I began to see a more human side to them.
Go see Fred! What did you say? I said, "Are you kidding me?! Who's going to marry US?" And it was easy to become desensitised to their message and how provocative it really is.
See, they covered their licence plates.
I don't know what they were up to.
Did they hit somebody? - Yeah.
- Is he OK? Is he OK? I'm sorry, hon.
They had the licence plate down.
You all right, honey? - Hey, bud.
- You got it all over.
Hey, bud, I'm sorry, honey.
I knew they had done something.
I am so sorry.
You want to go talk to your daddy? Hey, hey, you want your sign? Let me wipe that off of you, OK? I'm sorry.
Megan, can you? They are such cowards.
Who would hit a child? Who would do that? - It looks like here, Tim.
- I know His eyes.
Do you see that colour? That's what was in that cup.
It obviously got around on him.
Seeing seven-year-old Elisha get hit by a drink was a reminder that among the victims of the Phelps' were their own children.
It was Sunday and I'd been invited along to a church service.
It would be another chance to meet the pastor and maybe have an interview.
Are the bags over there? But first I had an appointment to help with chores around the homestead.
Do you see much of Gramps? - Sometimes on Monday and Tuesday.
- I haven't seen that much of him.
I think he's gotten tired of you guys.
- How can he be tired of us? - You and your impertinent questions.
He doesn't have much patience for people asking a bunch of questions that aren't relevant to the ministry.
You know, when we were at your house and you said I was going to Hell, - you found that funny.
- I did.
Why? Thinking on those things, it brings me pleasure to think that the Lord WILL vindicate his people.
He will carry out his wrath because he is perfect.
It doesn't make me happy to think of YOU burning in Hell.
- OK.
- Does that make me a better person? No! You know God because he sends the wicked to Hell and he saves the righteous.
That's comforting to think on.
Why couldn't you feel sad that I was going to Hell? Because it's according to God's will.
- So you rejoice in all his judgments? - Exactly.
Very good point.
If you got run over by a car, would your dad be pleased? If I got run over by a car I would be in Hell and my dad would be pleased.
- Really? - Really.
I'm serious.
And we have to move on.
- That's crazy.
- In your thinking it's crazy.
It's good.
come on.
A little later, I joined the rest of the church members in the family chapel for my first experience of one of Gramps' services.
He will be waiting for me Jesus so kind and true After that day is through.
Is it true that if I do something wrong, Gramps could go loco? - He'll just tell you not to do it.
- Would it be embarrassing for him? - For you.
- Why? There's no experience quite like it.
Same-sex marriage, by any name, civil union or otherwise, is the ultimate smash-mouth, in-your-face insult to God Almighty.
You think he's gonna let England and America get by with it? God Almighty has not joined fags in holy wedlock.
God no longer keeps America safe.
America's doomed.
Getting the pants beat off of us in Iraq.
And Afghanistan.
God is now America's terrorist.
That's who Bush is fighting.
That's the terrorist that he best be afraid of.
You tweaked his nose, you jackass! You tweaked his nose! God put it in your wicked heart to start that war! That's the message we got at the funerals of these dead soldiers.
God duped you into starting a war so he could punish you.
Any preacher preaching in any other way is a lying, hell-bound false prophet! It's almost 18 months now and this siege has got people eating their babies.
And their small children.
And each other! You're gonna eat your babies! God himself duped Bush into a no-win war and he did that by the technique of putting a lying spirit in the mouth of all his trusted advisers.
To punish America.
This will make at least two million.
At least two million.
Maybe three or four million.
Pastor, would there be five minutes for a couple of questions? - Well, uh Yeah, five minutes.
Shoot.
- OK.
I was struck by your preaching.
You referred mainly to Old Testament.
It was as if you feel we are living in a time of Biblical prophecy.
- Is that accurate? - No, it's not accurate.
If you had just a little knowledge of the Bible, you'd know that what you just said is stupidity in spades.
I don't know how to deal with a question like that.
You're just too dumb.
Sorry.
You've got a duty to know the Bible as well as I do.
- Why? - Because you're a human being.
God Almighty made ya and he will send your ass to Hell.
Is it accurate to say that you regard the Westboro Baptist church as the only church that's preaching according to the word of God? Is the three minutes up? The answer to your question is yes.
- It was five minutes.
- But I already talked two, didn't I? So there's three left? Do you believe your preaching is the only preaching according to the word of God? Asked and answered.
Next question.
As far as you're concerned, are the people of this church the only ones now living that will make it to the Kingdom of Heaven? Asked and answered.
Next question.
- Is there something you'd like me to ask? - Nope.
I didn't wanna talk to you or even let you in.
Isn't it an act of presumption that when you don't have all the information about all the other churches to assume you have privileged access to grace? I know all there is to know about them.
- How? - I won't keep talking.
Didn't Steve Drain tell you that you'd wasted an opportunity and they'd probably fire you? - You don't know anything about me.
- I know all there is to know.
You're just an evil I don't wanna go there.
- OK, this is about 15 minutes! - Thank you for your time.
Nice to see you.
And good luck to you.
OK, guys.
Did you come to carry some stuff? God hates fags! God hates fag enablers! Therefore God hates America and all of her military! The abominable, disgraceful, filthy conduct that you think of to engage in, you do it and you're proud of it.
Quit worshipping the flag, dummy! It can't help you.
I'd sensed a deep wellspring of anger in Gramps and I suspected this was the basis for his church's ministry.
His skewed interpretation of the Bible had been handed on to his children and was now broadcast to the world.
The Phelps had no interest in winning souls to christ.
Being hated was proof that they were doing the right thing.
As part of their effort to reach every corner of America, they had decided to picket a soldier's funeral several hundred miles away outside Chicago in Skokie, Illinois.
For one last time, I joined them.
So, um, you're flying all the way to Illinois Yes.
however many there are of you, just to picket this dead soldier's funeral? That's right.
- For 45 minutes.
- Yep.
- Is it really worth it? - Yeah! They'll get the message.
You see what it's created around this nation.
Good morning.
I'm gonna sit in the second row unless somebody else is there.
Where am I supposed to sit? How much would you say the church spends in an average year on flights? - A lot.
- How much? - It's in the 200,000 range.
- Really? $200,000.
That's more than maybe Ë100,000.
Yeah, I don't know the ratio.
Just to go and spread hate? - No, to go and preach the gospel.
- God's hate.
I didn't say your hate.
- It's very scriptural what I said.
- Actually, that's true.
"His unit was supposed to end its service in Iraq in August, "but one day before Foyteck was scheduled to leave, "he got news that it would be sent to Baghdad.
"He told his family he'd be home in November instead "and his mother mailed him his cell phone "so he would be able to call.
"Foyteck, 26, died two days before Hallowe'en, "shot in the neck by insurgents during a raid on a house near Baghdad.
"In addition to his mother, "he is survived by his father, a brother christopher "and grandparents.
" Doesn't that make you sad? It's very sad that they won't get the message.
All they have to do is obey their God and they'll stop the pain, but they're not going to.
- But that's abstract - It's not! It's so concrete.
We don't know anything more than this about Kraig Foyteck.
No, we know two things.
He's been killed, therefore he was doing something sinful.
He was fighting for a nation who has made God their enemy.
There's no good people in the military? It's all very plain and simple.
You will not make me feel bad.
I did not do THAT.
I'm doing this to help them.
Is there any danger of you feeling bad about it? Is there any danger? You say that almost as though I got through to you.
No, you didn't.
But you keep grinding away.
You view things through what you see and those things, the Scripture says, are temporal.
They'll fade away.
If God is infinitely wise and powerful and omniscient, then he could bring a soldier up to Heaven if he felt like it.
Listen to you! This nation thinks they are all-powerful, almighty and those young men and women You think that about your church.
You're right.
We do have power and the power comes from our God.
We have all the power.
Stay tuned.
Shortly, he'll come through the clouds and execute judgment on them.
Isn't it possible that the funeral is for a good man, a righteous and a nice person, who doesn't deserve to have his funeral picketed? Not a chance, poopy pants.
All right.
Oh, wicked land of sodomites At the funeral, I decided to break away from the picket and go inside the memorial home to see the mourners first hand.
He was doing what he wanted to do.
I have to honour that, as much as I miss him and don't think it's fair.
But he was doing what he believes and what he wanted.
Kraig wanted to go in the army after high school, so he did what he wanted to do.
He did.
We just have to carry on his memory and his honour through other soldiers and help other families.
Seeing the mourners brought home the reality of the grief but I realised I'd got as far as I could with Shirley.
Louis, you're going to Hell.
Try as I might, nothing I said made any impact on her beliefs.
Back in Topeka, and while we've been away a local Episcopalian church and target of pickets had caught fire.
For the Phelps, it was another sign of God's judgment and a reason to rejoice.
- You want to get a sign, Louis? - To hold? I don't think I can do that.
Yeah.
I was nearing the end of my time in the group.
I'd made no headway with Shirley, but tried my fellow documentary-maker, Steve Drain.
Now that I've come to the end of my time here, are you curious to hear my thoughts? I'd love to.
Go ahead.
I spent a little bit of time with the Pastor and I think maybe he's got a lot of anger.
Maybe he's a rage-aholic.
But perhaps his ministry is human-focused, not God-focused.
The Bible's a pretty long book, but if you pick and choose, you can justify almost any behaviour.
When I say God hates fags, OK, that's not the whole message that we have.
That's the front-burner issue, the elephant in the room that nobody else talks about.
That's not the only piece of evidence for my argument.
The whole idea that Westboro Baptist church, the 75 of us that are here, are the only ones going to Heaven.
Everyone else is Hell bound.
If there was somebody else out there preaching the unvarnished word of God, from cover to cover, we would have heard about them.
From the New Testament, Jesus christ seems to be a gentle spirit.
- If he did come back - He'd be holding this sign.
- rather than - I'm trying to tell you.
He'd be picketed by your church.
- I seriously believe that.
- You are seriously deluded.
- I'm preaching what the Bible says.
- You preach what your dark heart says.
I'm willing to talk with you, but you're just being silly.
- I'm not.
- Of course you are.
- Want a ride back? - I'm not being silly.
I don't think you have the truth.
You're running away from it.
You're just trying to turn yourself into God by saying things ought to be this way, or thus and such.
You are the one who has the God complex, Louis, not me.
- But I don't claim absolute truth.
- I don't claim it of myself.
The idea that you pick and choose.
These people, we'll be nice to them, - but not to those other ones.
- Have you ever seen me be mean? - Not you specifically.
The church.
- I am the church.
Did you rejoice when that church burned down? You're supposed to rejoice over ALL of God's judgments.
- You rejoice when soldiers die in Iraq? - Absolutely I do.
When people are knocked over by cars and get cancer? Absolutely.
I love it.
It's the righteous judgment of God Almighty.
come on.
My time among the hatemongers of Westboro Baptist church was done.
I'd expected to meet a group that causes pain to people in the outside world, but I'd been surprised to find that the members of the church are also paying a price themselves.
Shut off from the world, they preach a hatred that reflects back at them, confirming their beliefs and ultimately denying the right to a normal life to their youngest members.
' - Are we going to go in my car? - Yeah.
Mom, they're here.
They want to go for a coffee drink.
No.
She said no.
OK.
- We have coffee in our house.
- OK.
Have a coffee here.
All right? - How come we couldn't go out? - I don't know.
- How's it going? - Good.
Most 21-year-olds if they wanted to go out for coffee would be able to do that without their parents' permission.
That's true.
But I'm special! I listen to what my parents say.
I respect my parents, so Is it possible that you are grappling with more, um than the other women here? No.
What are you talking about? I sense there's a little bit more inner tension in you.
- Inner tension? - Yeah.
A little bit.
Oh, no.
People who watch us will be thinking there's a very nice, charming, attractive woman and it would be nice to see her maybe opening her mind a little bit and moving out into the world and maybe thinking in a few years of starting a family.
- Why does everybody have to get married? - Well, no-one has to.
But why shouldn't everybody have the choice? - I have the choice.
- You do and you don't.
It seems that it is so inculcated in you that the outside world is this devilish, satanic place that, as you said yourself, - there's really no-one for you to go to.
- Yeah.
Who wouldeven want to marry someone that serves God? I don't blame you for being born into a situation outside your control and I can also see that you're coming to a time in your life where you might start to question some of those things.
That time has come and gone.
I've already reached the age where I have made the decision of what I want to do in this life.
Did you have a rebellious few years? Louis, if I ever was rebellious, do you think I would tell you about it? I'm ashamed of any nonsense that I've ever done.
When we started picketing, when I was First Grade Six years old.
People have been treating me the way you see us being treated now since I was that young, so people didn't treat me right.
What did they do? Well, nobody wanted to talk to me at school.
And, um, they were ashamed to be around me.
- You know that sense of being ostracised? - Uh-huh.
If you preach that the world is hateful, and full of condemned sinners, then the world will start to take that shape.
Well, it's very simple.
We read the scriptures and we tell people what the standard is.
We don't do violence to people.
We, um warn them that their sins are taking them to Hell.
We do a courteous, loving thing to them.
That's courteous and loving.
And they hate us.
And theybeat on us.
And they don't want anything to do with us.
They're just downright mean to us sometimes, you know? What did we do to them? Nothing but a courtesy.
So - That's quite a weird kind of courtesy.
- How is it weird? Going to funerals and waving those placards.
We preach to the living, we warn them.
That's what we're doing.
Are you afraid of going to Hell? Um, I fear the wrath of God.
I fear, um, going to Hell.
But Icertainly hope I won't go there.
I think you laughed at the idea of me in Hell because maybe it made you feel that you weren't going to Hell.
I laughed at the thought of you going to Hell because I know you, Louis, and you're a scoffer and a mocker.
It gives me pleasure to know that the Lord will vindicate his people and he will glorify his own name.
That's all this is about.
Glorifying God.
So That's why I smiled.
- I haven't scoffed at you.
- Let's get out to the picket.
- Rules that you should obey.
- Did you do it for me? Yeah, so you can carry it around, so you can know all the rules of obeying God.
Don't kill people.
Don't marry two people.
Don't lie.
I think everyone lies some in their life.
Maybe when they're a kid.
Don't act like a snake.
More especially you, I guess.
Actually, all of these Louis does.
What does that mean? Act like a snake? I can't remember.
Hey! You gave us that No, Noah.
Don't say that.
Like a snake? You clarify for him.
Yeah.
Don't act like a snake.
Then it says, "Don't be sneaky".
- He's clarifying for you already.
- Yeah.