Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath (2016) s01e07 Episode Script
Enemies Of The Church
1 Here's what the Church has to say about the Reisdorfs.
"The Church disputes many of the statements made by the Reisdorfs.
Lois Reisdorf, an expelled Scientologist who had been spouting hate speech on various anti-Scientologist websites.
Brandon Reisdorf drove to the Church of Scientology of Los Angeles, got out of his car, and threw a hammer through a window.
He has also sent threatening e-mails to Scientologists.
According to a Tarasoff reporting form issued by Brandon's psychiatric care providers, Brandon Reisdorf has been threatening to harm Mr.
David Miscavige.
" Did you ever actually see this letter that I got from the Church of Scientology? - No.
- Well, it's delightful.
I'll bet.
[Chuckles.]
The Church of Scientology is accusing me of inciting hate crimes.
So it says, "Leah Remini's anti-Scientology antics has also inflamed acts of religious hate.
Miss Remini's support of wife-beater Ron Miscavige and another apostate, Lois Reisdorf, an expelled Scientologist who had been spouting hate speech on various anti-Scientology website coincided with a hate crime and death threat by Reisdorf's son.
Brandon Reisdorf drove to the Church of Scientology of Los Angeles, got out of his car, and threw a hammer through a window.
He then retrieved the hammer, threw it again a second time, even more forcefully, and drove off.
The car he escaped in was registered to his mother, Lois.
" And so that's because of me.
- Right.
- Not because of what they did to this kid.
- Right.
- Not because of what they do to people, but it's because I'm sending a tweet out or because I wrote a book.
I can only imagine that their intent is to hurt my reputation, ultimately, my reputation being hurt would lead to me not being hired in this business.
They believe that if they can get away with that sort of that it puts you in the mind set of, "My God, they'll do anything.
" I did not expect this, Mike, I really didn't.
- Okay.
- I expected them to come out and say that we're liars and bitter apostates.
- I understand that.
- And this is taking it to a level that is so [bleep.]
vile to me as a person that I feel gonna have to hire a [bleep.]
lawyer and go after this [bleep.]
The Church, they create fighters, and they have themselves to thank when those fighters then fight against them.
I am the writer of the textbooks of Scientology.
The aim and goal is to put man in a-a mental condition, where he him can solve his own problems.
It offers you a sense of purpose in life.
Not only are you fixing yourself, but you're also helping mankind.
Without any Scientology organization, things are not going to change on this planet.
Woman: After years of slowly questioning Scientology Man: Leah Remini in her very public break with Scientology I didn't want to find out that what I had done my whole life was a lie.
[Doorbell rings.]
[Cheers and applause.]
Fight for your family.
Fight for your daughters, your sons.
Get them out of this thing.
You're not going to continue to lie to people and abuse people and take their money and their lives.
If I can stop one, then I'm going to do it.
- Hi.
- Hi.
- Hey, guys.
- How are you? - So nice to meet you finally - Nice to meet you.
How are you? Good.
You? Thanks so much for your book and everything you've done.
It's been amazing.
Oh, my God, thank you.
Oh, and it it means so much to us.
- Yeah.
- It really does.
Thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
Makes it easier for us to talk out, too, you know? My name is Lois Reisdorf, and I was in Scientology for 22 years.
I joined the Commodore's Messenger Org.
That was the organization that had all the messengers who worked for L.
Ron Hubbard.
This was the time when Gary and I actually met.
I thought Gary was the bee's knees.
In the middle of 1976, we became an item.
And we got married.
in 1982, we left the Sea Org and Scientology, and we ended up moving to South Africa to be with my family, who I hadn't seen in 10 years.
During that time period, we have three sons.
They knew about Scientology, but they weren't brought up as Scientologists.
We didn't go events, we didn't - Yeah, you weren't - We didn't do any courses.
So you're off living a regular life.
- Yeah.
- My brothers must have just always been asking about it enough to understand a good amount of Scientology, more than me.
- And especially Craig.
- Especially Craig.
Craig definitely had a big interest in it.
He did.
After Lois and Gary left the Sea Organization, they maintained a low profile for 30 years.
With the idea that that would allow Lois to maintain the relationship with her family, who were still very prominent Scientologists in South Africa.
Unfortunately, that left the door open for their sons to kind of get involved in Scientology.
Lois: Brandon got involved mainly because of us.
From a psychiatry point of view, he had bipolar issues, but we didn't even know that at that time.
All we knew is that he was having problems.
So even though we had left the Church, we were trying to handle it with Scientology.
Leah: The Scientologists don't believe in mental conditions being treated with drugs.
They believe they have the answer.
And so they will handle this disorder with Scientology auditing, assists, and/or vitamins.
So they believe that they know what they're doing.
Scientology hates psychiatry so much because L.
Ron Hubbard said that Scientologists should hate psychiatry.
L.
Ron Hubbard offered Dianetics to the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association in 1950, and they laughed at him.
He then determined that they were the enemies of mankind.
And so that became the sort of enemy that every Scientologist loves to hate.
One thing, you know, in 35 years that stuck with me is I'm like a little bit worrisome about psychiatrists.
So our only solution, even though we were out of it, we used the introspection rundown.
The Church of Scientology says that they have a a solution to mental illness.
- Exactly.
- And it's called the what? Introspection rundown, and it doesn't work.
Okay, so they have this thing called the introspection rundown.
They're very aware of your son's mental illness or possibility of it.
- Yeah.
- Mm-hmm.
They say this thing will handle that.
- Exactly.
- Okay.
To make a long story short, he came back, I believe, in worse shape than when he went.
- It worsened his condition? - Yeah.
We had him better with just vitamins and walking in fresh air, - and, you know, just - Helping him.
and loving him, loving him.
Someone being a really good mom.
Mm-hmm.
Mike: Two of their sons ended up become staff members in the Church of Scientology.
And that started the crack in the door of now there is pressure on the sons to get the parents Lois and Gary back into good graces with the church.
For three years, Gary and I were both going through the motions with the Church to try to get back into the Church in good standings.
And that involved a lot of security checking, which is like confessionals, which we both had to pay for and go through many, many hours.
I didn't want anything to do with the Church in 35 years.
- I wanted nothing to do with it.
- Right.
But now you're getting interrogated on the meter to keep your family together.
Subjected $30,000 worth that I could So you're paying $30,000.
And I didn't even want to do it.
We did it purely to keep our family together.
Gary had been and Lois had maintained throughout this entire time sort of unbeknownst to the rest of the world a relationship with Gary's family, even though they had been declared suppressive people.
Then started to blow up.
Brandon realized how crazy this was and decided that he was not going to disconnect from his family.
But Craig stayed.
He wrote a Knowledge Report, ratted out his parents, that they were in communication with Gary's sisters Dede and Gale.
Lois: They had kind of gotten Craig into the fold in terms of reporting on us.
At that point, we were just on a mission to save our family, and it was excruciatingly painful.
And then in January of 2016 is when we got notification by the Church that we had both been declared suppressive people.
So Brandon's completely out now? Brandon's out, but he didn't take losing his brother very well.
I guess you could use the word he kind of snapped a little bit.
He basically went up to the main church here in L.
A.
, and there's a 4x6 window, and he threw a hammer through it.
And now he's the Church is after him, and they pressed charges.
And they don't care about his mental health.
A normal church you would think, let's say it was a Methodist, they would probably go and pray for him.
And say, "You know what, just pay us back.
We understand you're having a tough time.
We love you, you know, you're" That's how they would be.
These guys are ruthless, and they could care less about a person's state if you're not part of their team full on.
The Church, they take no responsibility for the fact they that they diagnosed his mental condition incorrectly, but now they're turning around and going, "Hey, look at this kid.
He's committed a hate crime against the Church of Scientology," which will be on his record.
Leah: Here we are.
Brandon has come to L.
A.
to talk to us, to tell his his story.
- Right.
- Because since we we met with his mother and father They've managed to get him convicted of a felony.
A hate crime felony.
This I'm not saying it was right, - what he did - I'm not, either.
We're dealing with mental illness.
And on top of this, the Church is responsible for administering medical advice without a medical license, in my opinion, by saying, "We have the answers to mental illness.
" So they prevented him from getting the real medical help that he needed.
Brandon, I was really sad to hear your story, because I know that you you trusted the Church, that you believed in the Church.
And now that church has turned against you.
From my understanding, there was something going on with you.
In 2012, I was going through a manic episode.
And it was an undiagnosed bipolar episode at the time, which later I did get diagnosed by real doctors.
Yeah.
Brandon: When I experience a manic episode, you're, like, hallucinating, right? And you're not sleeping.
And it's like almost like a dream world that you're in mentally.
And it's just there's different ideas and thoughts about situations that are distorted than what reality is.
I just can't control when that happens, like, what's going through my mind and what's coming out of my mouth and what I do.
Being born into Scientology, it's kind of passed down that psychiatry is not the answer to any spiritual problems or mental problems or whatever.
And so the Church gave me their solution to that problem, which is called the introspection rundown.
So this introspection rundown, so take me through this.
So I was at the home of two Scientologists, and they're both trained in this process that they were delivering to me.
- Yeah.
- And so I was there for about six weeks, and it was they were watching me basically for 24 hours around the clock.
What is it, they give you a meal, and they don't speak to you? How does how does it work? I was locked in a room for 24 hours a day.
Yeah.
Experiencing craziness in my mind.
It was just colors and pictures and hallucinations.
And in this time, you're getting no medical care.
What is this solution that Scientology has to make you not have this disorder? To just let it go, and they claimed it will run out eventually, and then you're fine again.
It's hard to explain.
I was I should have been in a psychiatric hospital.
Mike: The introspection rundown is a, quote, "breakthrough" that L.
Ron Hubbard made where he took one individual who was having a psychotic episode and locked him in a room, and kept him without anybody speaking to him for perhaps a week, until he stopped screaming and yelling and going crazy.
And Hubbard said that, "I have now found the cure for psychosis.
" After my parents were declared, I was given the option to stay in the Church or leave and basically, I would be declared a suppressive person, which is similar to being shunned.
The Church was saying to you you can't have both.
You can't have your family, because we, as the church, - see your family as an enemy.
- Exactly.
And it was very easy for me to make the decision, 'cause I already made it in my mind that I was choosing my family.
The problem is your brother was in the church.
- Yep.
- So he's disconnected from your whole family.
And it was very scary losing my brother.
Losing Craig, like, knowing I'm probably never gonna see him again.
That's when things for me first I was very angry towards Craig, but then it got into, like, sadness - and, like, revenge, I guess.
- Mm-hmm.
I just felt like we got raped by the Church.
- Mm-hmm.
- And what do we do now? - Right.
- You know? Brandon: Yeah, something just switched in me, and I just was enraged.
And I felt disgusted with what Scientology truly is.
And the only thing I could do was just make a statement.
I drove up to L.
A.
, and I went up to the Church.
And then I threw the hammer into the window.
It was a manic episode for sure.
When I got home, police showed up and took me straight to the the psychiatric ward down in San Diego.
- Mm.
- And I was in there for 19 days.
I did protest taking the psychiatric drugs, 'cause I was still a bit brainwashed about it.
Of a Scientologist, yeah.
And so they had to get a federal court order for for me to take it.
And so I took I took the drugs after I lost that.
I assume that you were getting better.
I was getting yeah.
And so then what happened? I was expecting to leave the psych ward and see my family, and when I was leaving, like, LAPD was right there waiting for me.
And I was taken into custody.
And from there, the Church did everything they possibly could to get you prosecuted so that they could claim that you had committed a felony hate crime - against Scientology.
- Right.
So now I have a felony on my record.
And I'm really not proud of it.
I'm not I've never been a violent person, you can ask any of my friends or family.
This then get put on websites.
The Church made a hate website about me.
It's just destructive.
Letters get sent to Leah Remini, claiming that she caused you to commit a hate crime.
- Yeah, not true.
- Oh, yeah.
That is not true.
I never read Leah's book.
I don't I didn't want to read it, 'cause I already experienced it.
It's just more depressing.
They handed my lawyer a paragraph that would be my apology to the Church of Scientology.
Basically, it said that the reason why I did this was because I read books that that were anti-Scientology or I went online and the media had all this stuff that was bad about Scientology, which was not true.
The reason I did it is because they have destroyed my life.
A Church lawyer wanted you to sign a document that said that? - Yeah.
- It's so [bleep.]
insane! But this is the modus operandi of, how do you deal with an "attacker," of Scientology.
And they didn't ever even saw him as "the attacker," he's just the convenient scapegoat to be able to No, no, no! But that's the point, Mike.
No, first they try to give him an "out.
" They go, "Listen, we'll make this all go away if you blame Leah, your mother, - Correct.
- Ron Miscavige, the news.
" Whatever the [bleep.]
else, "Going Clear.
" When he didn't bite on that, then they turn around and go, "You committed a hate crime.
" Now they're making him a criminal.
Right.
Exactly.
I'm gonna have to deal with going to get a job and people the business owners doing the background check and seeing a felony vandalism.
It shouldn't have been what I got as the sentencing.
And I have the rest of my life to have that show up, even if I do bring it down to misdemeanor or it gets expunged, it's still gonna show up that I did have a felony.
- Yeah, right.
- I've been destroyed.
The Church, again, is putting itself as the authority on mental health.
And then prosecuting him, hurting his future.
I'm not a lawyer, I don't work for the government, I don't work for the FBI.
But still, I'm trying to force this organization to take responsibility for the things that they are doing.
It's one thing to tell a story for me, it's another thing to actually do something that's actually gonna help people.
Couldn't we, through a contact at the FBI, say, "Hi, can we help you to open up an investigation, and can we tell you how you can actually successfully save people?" - Okay.
- Yeah? That that is something that I consider is a potential.
- Okay.
- Go hire someone who is very connected and is now working for a law firm.
Someone that has credibility with the people that would matter.
Okay.
And sit down with that person, say, "Okay, here is what we know.
This is all the information that we have.
Here are all the people that we have spoken to.
Here is all the people who have told us their stories.
Here is everything now.
How can something be done about that?" Okay.
Well, see, this makes me happy.
I I agree, Leah.
I'm glad you keep asking me this.
- See? See? - [Laughs.]
You were annoyed.
You were annoyed at first, and now you see that we've come to some solution.
Something that could be done.
- Exactly.
- I hear you.
When the first one of these shows airs, Scientology will do the same thing that they have done or tried to do to every other show.
"Oh, my God, Leah Remini is this horrible enemy.
Mike Rinder is a horrible enemy of Scientology.
" And the more they say it, the more motivated, at least, I become to go, "You know what? You're not gonna get away with this.
" The reason why I really wanted to talk to the gentleman we're going to talk to today is because they're journalists who are not Scientologists.
They have no family members in Scientology, they have no involvement in Scientology other than looking into a story about Scientology.
And each one of these stories have ended with the Church ultimately going after them, fair gaming them, and trying to destroy their careers, their personal lives.
I've had direct interactions with actually all three of these Mm-hmm.
guys before when I was in the Church.
And I was the one that was tasked with making them the enemy.
Yeah, you fair gamed two of them.
Exactly.
You're a [bleep.]
[Laughs.]
Mike: John Sweeney, Tony Ortega, and Mark Bunker are all examples of how Scientology deals with people from the media who have sought to tell people stories or tell the story about what's going on in Scientology.
It justifies almost anything being done to silence those who are speaking critically about the Church.
And yet they have persisted.
So I want to talk to them.
So thank you all for coming.
I really do appreciate you all being here.
We're only here because it annoys the Church of Scientology.
Is that why? Is that your purpose in life? No, it's my hobby.
It's not it's not my purpose in life.
- Yeah.
- And if they left us alone, it would be fine.
But because they don't, because they continue to tell lies about us, I have to say, "Okay, you're going to tell lies about me, then I'm going to tell the truth about you.
" Right.
And and that's what Mike and I were talking about was that you guys were just simply trying to tell the story.
You started out just doing a piece on Scientology, and they immediately attacked.
Were were you shocked as a journalist? I have done stories about Saddam Hussein, Ceausescu, Putin, Trump.
I've been to North Korea.
I don't have nightmares about North Korea in the same way that I did about the Church of Scientology, because, at times, it felt like a battle for my own sanity.
When we did the film in 2007, we had been spied upon from Florida to California.
There's been a car chase in L.
A.
There were creepy P.
I.
s in our hotel.
You'd spied on us.
I went a bit nuts.
Hi, my name is John Sweeney from the BBC.
Are you from the Church of Scientology? Why have you been following us? Tell me why you've been following us.
There is a video of me losing my temper, which the Church of Scientology's John Alex Wood put up on the Net.
It's got millions of viewers.
And you're accusing members of my religion of engaging in brainwashing.
No, Tommy, you shut up! - Brainwashing! - No, you No, listen to me! You were not there! They then sent out 10,000 DVDs to people in Britain.
Total strangers got in touch with me, vicars in Northamptonshire, accountants in Scotland said, "We got this thing through the post.
" There is no other organization, no other nasty government, no other set of totalitarian rulers or whatever who have ever done this to me.
It starts eating into your head.
Mark: Scientology is having a street fair.
Everybody is invited.
- Good evening.
- Good evening! - Hi.
- Hi.
Street's closed off, sir.
You're not wanted here.
Why don't we have the police talk to you.
Mark: But, wait a minute.
There's a banner right there that says "All Welcome.
" I started looking into Scientology in '98.
It was just a bigger deal back then, right? There were many more Scientologists.
Yeah, and they were willing to come forward and talk on camera.
So I captured a lot of very bizarre exchanges.
Why do you attack Scientology? Mark: Because of the criminal activities of your organization.
Good point! Criminal activities! What are your criminal activities, Mark? Because that's why you're here.
You got your own criminal activities you want to hide.
Let's spit them out, Mark.
That's all you're here for, to hide your own crimes.
Oh, I'm sure you're a child molester, myself.
All right.
He looks like it to me.
I mean, that would be my guess.
But why don't you tell us, Mark? What is it? What are your crimes? I was a guy at that point who had a camera and had some editing equipment.
So I wasn't a journalist like these fellas.
But I thought this story was great and it needed to be told.
At that point, there was very little video on the web.
So I thought, "Here's how I can help in this cause.
" - [Car horn beeping.]
- Yes! Yes, yes, yes! On L.
Ron Hubbard's birthday in '99, I decided I'm going to go and shoot some video at the Org of the protest.
- I know all about S.
P.
s.
- Do you? I know who you guys are, and I know what you do.
[Camera shutter clicks.]
The next day, Scientology had spread these leaflets around my neighborhood.
So all of my neighbors saw this very ominous photo of me.
"Beware Mark Bunker.
" And, luckily, on this one, they actually do say "Church of Scientology" at the bottom.
Yes, they do.
It says "Scientology Parishioners Committee.
" Yeah, two hours after this was delivered, I looked out the window, two Scientologist had just come up to my place with their picket signs.
And I grabbed my camera and went out there and started to interview them.
Mark: Are you a Scientologist, or were you hired by Scientology to come by? - I'm a Scientologist.
- Oh, really? How long you been in Scientology? It doesn't matter.
I'm willing to talk about anything that you guys want to talk about.
This is the picture you want to get here.
Why don't you read that and you can see why "Beware your neighbor Mark Bunker.
Is not all that he seems.
" Once Scientology let me know that they knew who I am, the fear went away.
It was like, "You want to come after me, I'll stand up to you.
- Right.
- You know, you're a big bully.
- Yes.
- And I'm sick of bullies.
Right.
I've been a journalist more than 20 years, and I've written about a lot of different subjects.
And, often, I'm writing a story about somebody that doesn't like that story coming out.
And it's something that you understand as a journalist that you need to be tough and you need to talk to these people.
And you want to keep talking to them even if you have made them angry.
You write about Scientology, they not only won't talk to you, but you start hearing from people you went to college with or people you went to high school with, saying, "Tony, there's this private investigator calling and asking about you.
" - Right.
- At one point, somebody who's close to me and lived in New York let me know that a private investigator had showed up at their house.
- Mm-hmm.
- And two days later, that same private investigator was knocking on a door of somebody very close to me in California.
- Mm-hmm.
- So just crisscrossing the country trying to track down everybody I had ever worked with, I'd ever gone to school with.
- And never calling me directly.
- Right.
Never calling me up and saying, "We have an issue with the story, we have an issue with this fact.
" It's always this really strange, creepy reaction to try to undermine you, try to frighten you.
Maybe the most pernicious thing they did to me was they hired an out of work journalist to pretend that he was writing a story about my wife, to try to frighten her employers.
And it was a very nervous time.
Her employer stuck by her.
I think they genuinely wanted to try to get her fired, get her in trouble, but it was just also to just make us both really frightened.
And they followed my mother.
They twice showed up at her house, and recently, when I went to visit her, we got a creepy call about, why did you and your mother - go here together? - Mm-hmm.
I mean, they just want to let you know that they're watching you and watching your family members.
And believe me, it's effective.
Because then you have to ask yourself, "Okay, I'm you know, I'm a journalist, I can handle these kind of things, but do I want my family to go through that just because I'm pursuing a story?" That's what they want you they want you to make that calculation.
- Right.
- To try to frighten you.
And all it does, of course, it just makes you more curious about them.
- Right.
- Who are these people? Why are they doing these things? The absolute hard-bound, ironclad rule dictated by L.
Ron Hubbard is that everybody who says something that is in any way viewed by the Church as being derogatory or exposing something improperly or whatever have crimes.
I guarantee you, if you look, you will find them.
- And they believe that.
- Right.
And the problem is that it just isn't a true thing.
So when they can't actually find anything, then they send private investigators out and say, "Ah! He's got to be involved in child pornography, because, you know, the back page of the 'Village Voice' has these ads for pornography on them, so he's got to be involved in it, so you got to find it.
" So then, they're out asking neighbors, "We're investigating Tony Ortega for child pornography with the hope that someone may spring up with something," - and here's a lead.
- Right, right.
But that will go on because there's only one outcome that is acceptable the investigation must disclose horrible, sordid crimes that you're engaged in.
And if they have not disclosed horrible, sordid crimes, they haven't done their investigation right.
You and you and the Church of Scientology have been spying on the BBC.
I don't know what you're talking about.
- Nothing to do with it? - You're being a bit paranoid.
Was I being paranoid? No.
You were being followed.
- We were being followed? - Yes.
And who gave the orders to follow us? It would have come under my purview.
Well, Mike's heard me say this often that I used to think Mike was evil.
How could you not be evil if you're doing this? - No, he's evil.
He is evil.
- [Laughs.]
My interaction with you and with John and many other people since is to try and let you understand that it was never personal.
Mm-hmm.
It was also misguided.
I can't excuse those things.
I can only try and explain this was my mind-set at the time.
No, I've come to understand that, and I've never needed apologies from you.
I know.
You're not just journalists or people that I happen to have an interaction with at some time, I consider all of you are friends of mine now.
- Now.
But let me - Like, personal friends.
I'm trying to cast my mind back to what it was like working, it felt, against you in 2007.
This psychological thing where you're where you no longer trust reality is horrible.
And you took part in it.
So what you're referring to is in 2006, '07.
we did an interview at the Church of Scientology Celebrity Center.
March 2007.
I remember it well.
The galactic warlord who 75 million years ago sort of put people's aliens John, I already answered this, too.
I told you it's none of us know what you're talking about.
It's, like, loony.
It's weird.
It makes you look weird.
I started asking you about my standard questions, one of which is is it true that Scientologists believe in the space alien Satan called Xenu, who brought space aliens to Earth 75 million years ago and blew them up with hydrogen bombs inside volcanos.
You said, "I don't know what you're talking about, - you're a lunatic.
" - Correct.
It's rubbish.
You're asking me about something that's confidential in the Church.
We'll be charged $100,000 any time we disclose what the confidential materials of Scientology are.
Not to mention, we are taught that if we tell you the information, John, you're gonna die.
We don't want you to die, as much as we hate you, you know, I don't want you to die of cancer because I revealed to you or confirmed to you the confidential information.
So here is a thing which calls itself a religion which doesn't tell the outside world about what its core belief is, - its core story.
- Right.
I think it's easy to make fun of Scientology and to point out the unbelievability of Scientology.
But when you do that, you are negating Scientologists' pain.
I wish I could take back what I promoted and defend all of my life.
But, you know, I can't now.
- All of this - Mm-hmm.
This is your way of saying sorry.
Yes, of course.
Looking at the future, I think it very likely you're producer will be harassed.
They will their weaknesses will be explored, and they will be put under more pressure than perhaps they've ever experienced in their life before.
Not just legally, but also other stuff, which is creepy, weird, and sinister.
The Church is gonna seek to discredit everybody that has been involved in the making of this program, from the people who are interviewed, to you, to the production company, to everybody and anybody that has anything to do with this program at all.
Here are all the letters that we've received from the Church.
This production, asking for interviews, back and forth over time for from the beginning of the production.
For the most part, everybody gets this.
Everybody gets lots of letters, you know, acting like they're being wronged and you're not listening to them, blah, blah, blah.
And that has worked.
I personally know of some productions that did not air because this scared them out of it.
But it won't scare you.
So what's the next level? You know, maybe you'll get your own smear website, maybe you'll get some videos of you, maybe the people making the film will get shown up on these kind of things.
That's kind of the spectrum of what you might be facing.
Leah: That's what they do.
They created web sites, they hire P.
I.
s, they try to destroy people's lives, they destroy people's families, then turn around and go, "Look at them trying to get press and trying to make money off their former church.
Why don't they get on with their lives?" [Bleep.]
you.
It doesn't matter to me.
It really doesn't.
The stories that we're telling are true.
And so that's why I just say at the end of the day bull I'm not gonna be intimidated.
The Church will get exposed, and I'm not gonna stop.
I will be really [bleep.]
pissed if I flew all this way and paid money out of my pocket for these guys to say nothing can be done about it.
- So will I.
- I'm hoping that when we meet with these lawyers today, that they say, "You guys have found a way to help people.
" Exactly.
That we now have a path forward - to be able to take action.
- Yeah.
How that's gonna happen, I don't know.
But I am hoping that that is what we will have at the end of the meeting today is, "Okay, we know what to do now.
Yes, there's gonna be some work, oh, yes, it's gonna take a little time.
But this is what now can be done and how we can proceed.
" - Right.
- That's what I'm hoping for.
We're gonna go meet the lawyers in an hour.
I think we should go light a candle across the street.
- There you go.
- I do.
Let's go.
- An adventure.
- And it will bring us good luck.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Hey.
- How are you? Good, and you? - Good.
- Good.
Mary and Joseph! How big is this church? It's huge.
The Church of Scientology taught me everything in my life.
They taught me to attack my critics, and now I'm attacking my critics.
My critics are now Scientologists.
But what I don't think I've adjusted to is the fight.
My fight to defend something that I thought was so good is now the same passion and fight that I'm using to fight them.
And I'm always in fight mode.
But I can't let the Church continue to abuse people and take their money and their lives.
There's a part of me that feels like such a [bleep.]
hypocrite to sit here and attack something that I was part of my whole life because I was offended by people turning on the church.
And now I'm that person.
You're, like, really nervous, huh? I don't want to be disappointed.
You don't want people to get away with That's it.
No matter what it is.
For some reason, I believe that I am the person to help to make it right.
Here we are.
- Okay.
- Your bag.
Thank you.
Thank you, honey.
"The Church disputes many of the statements made by the Reisdorfs.
Lois Reisdorf, an expelled Scientologist who had been spouting hate speech on various anti-Scientologist websites.
Brandon Reisdorf drove to the Church of Scientology of Los Angeles, got out of his car, and threw a hammer through a window.
He has also sent threatening e-mails to Scientologists.
According to a Tarasoff reporting form issued by Brandon's psychiatric care providers, Brandon Reisdorf has been threatening to harm Mr.
David Miscavige.
" Did you ever actually see this letter that I got from the Church of Scientology? - No.
- Well, it's delightful.
I'll bet.
[Chuckles.]
The Church of Scientology is accusing me of inciting hate crimes.
So it says, "Leah Remini's anti-Scientology antics has also inflamed acts of religious hate.
Miss Remini's support of wife-beater Ron Miscavige and another apostate, Lois Reisdorf, an expelled Scientologist who had been spouting hate speech on various anti-Scientology website coincided with a hate crime and death threat by Reisdorf's son.
Brandon Reisdorf drove to the Church of Scientology of Los Angeles, got out of his car, and threw a hammer through a window.
He then retrieved the hammer, threw it again a second time, even more forcefully, and drove off.
The car he escaped in was registered to his mother, Lois.
" And so that's because of me.
- Right.
- Not because of what they did to this kid.
- Right.
- Not because of what they do to people, but it's because I'm sending a tweet out or because I wrote a book.
I can only imagine that their intent is to hurt my reputation, ultimately, my reputation being hurt would lead to me not being hired in this business.
They believe that if they can get away with that sort of that it puts you in the mind set of, "My God, they'll do anything.
" I did not expect this, Mike, I really didn't.
- Okay.
- I expected them to come out and say that we're liars and bitter apostates.
- I understand that.
- And this is taking it to a level that is so [bleep.]
vile to me as a person that I feel gonna have to hire a [bleep.]
lawyer and go after this [bleep.]
The Church, they create fighters, and they have themselves to thank when those fighters then fight against them.
I am the writer of the textbooks of Scientology.
The aim and goal is to put man in a-a mental condition, where he him can solve his own problems.
It offers you a sense of purpose in life.
Not only are you fixing yourself, but you're also helping mankind.
Without any Scientology organization, things are not going to change on this planet.
Woman: After years of slowly questioning Scientology Man: Leah Remini in her very public break with Scientology I didn't want to find out that what I had done my whole life was a lie.
[Doorbell rings.]
[Cheers and applause.]
Fight for your family.
Fight for your daughters, your sons.
Get them out of this thing.
You're not going to continue to lie to people and abuse people and take their money and their lives.
If I can stop one, then I'm going to do it.
- Hi.
- Hi.
- Hey, guys.
- How are you? - So nice to meet you finally - Nice to meet you.
How are you? Good.
You? Thanks so much for your book and everything you've done.
It's been amazing.
Oh, my God, thank you.
Oh, and it it means so much to us.
- Yeah.
- It really does.
Thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
Makes it easier for us to talk out, too, you know? My name is Lois Reisdorf, and I was in Scientology for 22 years.
I joined the Commodore's Messenger Org.
That was the organization that had all the messengers who worked for L.
Ron Hubbard.
This was the time when Gary and I actually met.
I thought Gary was the bee's knees.
In the middle of 1976, we became an item.
And we got married.
in 1982, we left the Sea Org and Scientology, and we ended up moving to South Africa to be with my family, who I hadn't seen in 10 years.
During that time period, we have three sons.
They knew about Scientology, but they weren't brought up as Scientologists.
We didn't go events, we didn't - Yeah, you weren't - We didn't do any courses.
So you're off living a regular life.
- Yeah.
- My brothers must have just always been asking about it enough to understand a good amount of Scientology, more than me.
- And especially Craig.
- Especially Craig.
Craig definitely had a big interest in it.
He did.
After Lois and Gary left the Sea Organization, they maintained a low profile for 30 years.
With the idea that that would allow Lois to maintain the relationship with her family, who were still very prominent Scientologists in South Africa.
Unfortunately, that left the door open for their sons to kind of get involved in Scientology.
Lois: Brandon got involved mainly because of us.
From a psychiatry point of view, he had bipolar issues, but we didn't even know that at that time.
All we knew is that he was having problems.
So even though we had left the Church, we were trying to handle it with Scientology.
Leah: The Scientologists don't believe in mental conditions being treated with drugs.
They believe they have the answer.
And so they will handle this disorder with Scientology auditing, assists, and/or vitamins.
So they believe that they know what they're doing.
Scientology hates psychiatry so much because L.
Ron Hubbard said that Scientologists should hate psychiatry.
L.
Ron Hubbard offered Dianetics to the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association in 1950, and they laughed at him.
He then determined that they were the enemies of mankind.
And so that became the sort of enemy that every Scientologist loves to hate.
One thing, you know, in 35 years that stuck with me is I'm like a little bit worrisome about psychiatrists.
So our only solution, even though we were out of it, we used the introspection rundown.
The Church of Scientology says that they have a a solution to mental illness.
- Exactly.
- And it's called the what? Introspection rundown, and it doesn't work.
Okay, so they have this thing called the introspection rundown.
They're very aware of your son's mental illness or possibility of it.
- Yeah.
- Mm-hmm.
They say this thing will handle that.
- Exactly.
- Okay.
To make a long story short, he came back, I believe, in worse shape than when he went.
- It worsened his condition? - Yeah.
We had him better with just vitamins and walking in fresh air, - and, you know, just - Helping him.
and loving him, loving him.
Someone being a really good mom.
Mm-hmm.
Mike: Two of their sons ended up become staff members in the Church of Scientology.
And that started the crack in the door of now there is pressure on the sons to get the parents Lois and Gary back into good graces with the church.
For three years, Gary and I were both going through the motions with the Church to try to get back into the Church in good standings.
And that involved a lot of security checking, which is like confessionals, which we both had to pay for and go through many, many hours.
I didn't want anything to do with the Church in 35 years.
- I wanted nothing to do with it.
- Right.
But now you're getting interrogated on the meter to keep your family together.
Subjected $30,000 worth that I could So you're paying $30,000.
And I didn't even want to do it.
We did it purely to keep our family together.
Gary had been and Lois had maintained throughout this entire time sort of unbeknownst to the rest of the world a relationship with Gary's family, even though they had been declared suppressive people.
Then started to blow up.
Brandon realized how crazy this was and decided that he was not going to disconnect from his family.
But Craig stayed.
He wrote a Knowledge Report, ratted out his parents, that they were in communication with Gary's sisters Dede and Gale.
Lois: They had kind of gotten Craig into the fold in terms of reporting on us.
At that point, we were just on a mission to save our family, and it was excruciatingly painful.
And then in January of 2016 is when we got notification by the Church that we had both been declared suppressive people.
So Brandon's completely out now? Brandon's out, but he didn't take losing his brother very well.
I guess you could use the word he kind of snapped a little bit.
He basically went up to the main church here in L.
A.
, and there's a 4x6 window, and he threw a hammer through it.
And now he's the Church is after him, and they pressed charges.
And they don't care about his mental health.
A normal church you would think, let's say it was a Methodist, they would probably go and pray for him.
And say, "You know what, just pay us back.
We understand you're having a tough time.
We love you, you know, you're" That's how they would be.
These guys are ruthless, and they could care less about a person's state if you're not part of their team full on.
The Church, they take no responsibility for the fact they that they diagnosed his mental condition incorrectly, but now they're turning around and going, "Hey, look at this kid.
He's committed a hate crime against the Church of Scientology," which will be on his record.
Leah: Here we are.
Brandon has come to L.
A.
to talk to us, to tell his his story.
- Right.
- Because since we we met with his mother and father They've managed to get him convicted of a felony.
A hate crime felony.
This I'm not saying it was right, - what he did - I'm not, either.
We're dealing with mental illness.
And on top of this, the Church is responsible for administering medical advice without a medical license, in my opinion, by saying, "We have the answers to mental illness.
" So they prevented him from getting the real medical help that he needed.
Brandon, I was really sad to hear your story, because I know that you you trusted the Church, that you believed in the Church.
And now that church has turned against you.
From my understanding, there was something going on with you.
In 2012, I was going through a manic episode.
And it was an undiagnosed bipolar episode at the time, which later I did get diagnosed by real doctors.
Yeah.
Brandon: When I experience a manic episode, you're, like, hallucinating, right? And you're not sleeping.
And it's like almost like a dream world that you're in mentally.
And it's just there's different ideas and thoughts about situations that are distorted than what reality is.
I just can't control when that happens, like, what's going through my mind and what's coming out of my mouth and what I do.
Being born into Scientology, it's kind of passed down that psychiatry is not the answer to any spiritual problems or mental problems or whatever.
And so the Church gave me their solution to that problem, which is called the introspection rundown.
So this introspection rundown, so take me through this.
So I was at the home of two Scientologists, and they're both trained in this process that they were delivering to me.
- Yeah.
- And so I was there for about six weeks, and it was they were watching me basically for 24 hours around the clock.
What is it, they give you a meal, and they don't speak to you? How does how does it work? I was locked in a room for 24 hours a day.
Yeah.
Experiencing craziness in my mind.
It was just colors and pictures and hallucinations.
And in this time, you're getting no medical care.
What is this solution that Scientology has to make you not have this disorder? To just let it go, and they claimed it will run out eventually, and then you're fine again.
It's hard to explain.
I was I should have been in a psychiatric hospital.
Mike: The introspection rundown is a, quote, "breakthrough" that L.
Ron Hubbard made where he took one individual who was having a psychotic episode and locked him in a room, and kept him without anybody speaking to him for perhaps a week, until he stopped screaming and yelling and going crazy.
And Hubbard said that, "I have now found the cure for psychosis.
" After my parents were declared, I was given the option to stay in the Church or leave and basically, I would be declared a suppressive person, which is similar to being shunned.
The Church was saying to you you can't have both.
You can't have your family, because we, as the church, - see your family as an enemy.
- Exactly.
And it was very easy for me to make the decision, 'cause I already made it in my mind that I was choosing my family.
The problem is your brother was in the church.
- Yep.
- So he's disconnected from your whole family.
And it was very scary losing my brother.
Losing Craig, like, knowing I'm probably never gonna see him again.
That's when things for me first I was very angry towards Craig, but then it got into, like, sadness - and, like, revenge, I guess.
- Mm-hmm.
I just felt like we got raped by the Church.
- Mm-hmm.
- And what do we do now? - Right.
- You know? Brandon: Yeah, something just switched in me, and I just was enraged.
And I felt disgusted with what Scientology truly is.
And the only thing I could do was just make a statement.
I drove up to L.
A.
, and I went up to the Church.
And then I threw the hammer into the window.
It was a manic episode for sure.
When I got home, police showed up and took me straight to the the psychiatric ward down in San Diego.
- Mm.
- And I was in there for 19 days.
I did protest taking the psychiatric drugs, 'cause I was still a bit brainwashed about it.
Of a Scientologist, yeah.
And so they had to get a federal court order for for me to take it.
And so I took I took the drugs after I lost that.
I assume that you were getting better.
I was getting yeah.
And so then what happened? I was expecting to leave the psych ward and see my family, and when I was leaving, like, LAPD was right there waiting for me.
And I was taken into custody.
And from there, the Church did everything they possibly could to get you prosecuted so that they could claim that you had committed a felony hate crime - against Scientology.
- Right.
So now I have a felony on my record.
And I'm really not proud of it.
I'm not I've never been a violent person, you can ask any of my friends or family.
This then get put on websites.
The Church made a hate website about me.
It's just destructive.
Letters get sent to Leah Remini, claiming that she caused you to commit a hate crime.
- Yeah, not true.
- Oh, yeah.
That is not true.
I never read Leah's book.
I don't I didn't want to read it, 'cause I already experienced it.
It's just more depressing.
They handed my lawyer a paragraph that would be my apology to the Church of Scientology.
Basically, it said that the reason why I did this was because I read books that that were anti-Scientology or I went online and the media had all this stuff that was bad about Scientology, which was not true.
The reason I did it is because they have destroyed my life.
A Church lawyer wanted you to sign a document that said that? - Yeah.
- It's so [bleep.]
insane! But this is the modus operandi of, how do you deal with an "attacker," of Scientology.
And they didn't ever even saw him as "the attacker," he's just the convenient scapegoat to be able to No, no, no! But that's the point, Mike.
No, first they try to give him an "out.
" They go, "Listen, we'll make this all go away if you blame Leah, your mother, - Correct.
- Ron Miscavige, the news.
" Whatever the [bleep.]
else, "Going Clear.
" When he didn't bite on that, then they turn around and go, "You committed a hate crime.
" Now they're making him a criminal.
Right.
Exactly.
I'm gonna have to deal with going to get a job and people the business owners doing the background check and seeing a felony vandalism.
It shouldn't have been what I got as the sentencing.
And I have the rest of my life to have that show up, even if I do bring it down to misdemeanor or it gets expunged, it's still gonna show up that I did have a felony.
- Yeah, right.
- I've been destroyed.
The Church, again, is putting itself as the authority on mental health.
And then prosecuting him, hurting his future.
I'm not a lawyer, I don't work for the government, I don't work for the FBI.
But still, I'm trying to force this organization to take responsibility for the things that they are doing.
It's one thing to tell a story for me, it's another thing to actually do something that's actually gonna help people.
Couldn't we, through a contact at the FBI, say, "Hi, can we help you to open up an investigation, and can we tell you how you can actually successfully save people?" - Okay.
- Yeah? That that is something that I consider is a potential.
- Okay.
- Go hire someone who is very connected and is now working for a law firm.
Someone that has credibility with the people that would matter.
Okay.
And sit down with that person, say, "Okay, here is what we know.
This is all the information that we have.
Here are all the people that we have spoken to.
Here is all the people who have told us their stories.
Here is everything now.
How can something be done about that?" Okay.
Well, see, this makes me happy.
I I agree, Leah.
I'm glad you keep asking me this.
- See? See? - [Laughs.]
You were annoyed.
You were annoyed at first, and now you see that we've come to some solution.
Something that could be done.
- Exactly.
- I hear you.
When the first one of these shows airs, Scientology will do the same thing that they have done or tried to do to every other show.
"Oh, my God, Leah Remini is this horrible enemy.
Mike Rinder is a horrible enemy of Scientology.
" And the more they say it, the more motivated, at least, I become to go, "You know what? You're not gonna get away with this.
" The reason why I really wanted to talk to the gentleman we're going to talk to today is because they're journalists who are not Scientologists.
They have no family members in Scientology, they have no involvement in Scientology other than looking into a story about Scientology.
And each one of these stories have ended with the Church ultimately going after them, fair gaming them, and trying to destroy their careers, their personal lives.
I've had direct interactions with actually all three of these Mm-hmm.
guys before when I was in the Church.
And I was the one that was tasked with making them the enemy.
Yeah, you fair gamed two of them.
Exactly.
You're a [bleep.]
[Laughs.]
Mike: John Sweeney, Tony Ortega, and Mark Bunker are all examples of how Scientology deals with people from the media who have sought to tell people stories or tell the story about what's going on in Scientology.
It justifies almost anything being done to silence those who are speaking critically about the Church.
And yet they have persisted.
So I want to talk to them.
So thank you all for coming.
I really do appreciate you all being here.
We're only here because it annoys the Church of Scientology.
Is that why? Is that your purpose in life? No, it's my hobby.
It's not it's not my purpose in life.
- Yeah.
- And if they left us alone, it would be fine.
But because they don't, because they continue to tell lies about us, I have to say, "Okay, you're going to tell lies about me, then I'm going to tell the truth about you.
" Right.
And and that's what Mike and I were talking about was that you guys were just simply trying to tell the story.
You started out just doing a piece on Scientology, and they immediately attacked.
Were were you shocked as a journalist? I have done stories about Saddam Hussein, Ceausescu, Putin, Trump.
I've been to North Korea.
I don't have nightmares about North Korea in the same way that I did about the Church of Scientology, because, at times, it felt like a battle for my own sanity.
When we did the film in 2007, we had been spied upon from Florida to California.
There's been a car chase in L.
A.
There were creepy P.
I.
s in our hotel.
You'd spied on us.
I went a bit nuts.
Hi, my name is John Sweeney from the BBC.
Are you from the Church of Scientology? Why have you been following us? Tell me why you've been following us.
There is a video of me losing my temper, which the Church of Scientology's John Alex Wood put up on the Net.
It's got millions of viewers.
And you're accusing members of my religion of engaging in brainwashing.
No, Tommy, you shut up! - Brainwashing! - No, you No, listen to me! You were not there! They then sent out 10,000 DVDs to people in Britain.
Total strangers got in touch with me, vicars in Northamptonshire, accountants in Scotland said, "We got this thing through the post.
" There is no other organization, no other nasty government, no other set of totalitarian rulers or whatever who have ever done this to me.
It starts eating into your head.
Mark: Scientology is having a street fair.
Everybody is invited.
- Good evening.
- Good evening! - Hi.
- Hi.
Street's closed off, sir.
You're not wanted here.
Why don't we have the police talk to you.
Mark: But, wait a minute.
There's a banner right there that says "All Welcome.
" I started looking into Scientology in '98.
It was just a bigger deal back then, right? There were many more Scientologists.
Yeah, and they were willing to come forward and talk on camera.
So I captured a lot of very bizarre exchanges.
Why do you attack Scientology? Mark: Because of the criminal activities of your organization.
Good point! Criminal activities! What are your criminal activities, Mark? Because that's why you're here.
You got your own criminal activities you want to hide.
Let's spit them out, Mark.
That's all you're here for, to hide your own crimes.
Oh, I'm sure you're a child molester, myself.
All right.
He looks like it to me.
I mean, that would be my guess.
But why don't you tell us, Mark? What is it? What are your crimes? I was a guy at that point who had a camera and had some editing equipment.
So I wasn't a journalist like these fellas.
But I thought this story was great and it needed to be told.
At that point, there was very little video on the web.
So I thought, "Here's how I can help in this cause.
" - [Car horn beeping.]
- Yes! Yes, yes, yes! On L.
Ron Hubbard's birthday in '99, I decided I'm going to go and shoot some video at the Org of the protest.
- I know all about S.
P.
s.
- Do you? I know who you guys are, and I know what you do.
[Camera shutter clicks.]
The next day, Scientology had spread these leaflets around my neighborhood.
So all of my neighbors saw this very ominous photo of me.
"Beware Mark Bunker.
" And, luckily, on this one, they actually do say "Church of Scientology" at the bottom.
Yes, they do.
It says "Scientology Parishioners Committee.
" Yeah, two hours after this was delivered, I looked out the window, two Scientologist had just come up to my place with their picket signs.
And I grabbed my camera and went out there and started to interview them.
Mark: Are you a Scientologist, or were you hired by Scientology to come by? - I'm a Scientologist.
- Oh, really? How long you been in Scientology? It doesn't matter.
I'm willing to talk about anything that you guys want to talk about.
This is the picture you want to get here.
Why don't you read that and you can see why "Beware your neighbor Mark Bunker.
Is not all that he seems.
" Once Scientology let me know that they knew who I am, the fear went away.
It was like, "You want to come after me, I'll stand up to you.
- Right.
- You know, you're a big bully.
- Yes.
- And I'm sick of bullies.
Right.
I've been a journalist more than 20 years, and I've written about a lot of different subjects.
And, often, I'm writing a story about somebody that doesn't like that story coming out.
And it's something that you understand as a journalist that you need to be tough and you need to talk to these people.
And you want to keep talking to them even if you have made them angry.
You write about Scientology, they not only won't talk to you, but you start hearing from people you went to college with or people you went to high school with, saying, "Tony, there's this private investigator calling and asking about you.
" - Right.
- At one point, somebody who's close to me and lived in New York let me know that a private investigator had showed up at their house.
- Mm-hmm.
- And two days later, that same private investigator was knocking on a door of somebody very close to me in California.
- Mm-hmm.
- So just crisscrossing the country trying to track down everybody I had ever worked with, I'd ever gone to school with.
- And never calling me directly.
- Right.
Never calling me up and saying, "We have an issue with the story, we have an issue with this fact.
" It's always this really strange, creepy reaction to try to undermine you, try to frighten you.
Maybe the most pernicious thing they did to me was they hired an out of work journalist to pretend that he was writing a story about my wife, to try to frighten her employers.
And it was a very nervous time.
Her employer stuck by her.
I think they genuinely wanted to try to get her fired, get her in trouble, but it was just also to just make us both really frightened.
And they followed my mother.
They twice showed up at her house, and recently, when I went to visit her, we got a creepy call about, why did you and your mother - go here together? - Mm-hmm.
I mean, they just want to let you know that they're watching you and watching your family members.
And believe me, it's effective.
Because then you have to ask yourself, "Okay, I'm you know, I'm a journalist, I can handle these kind of things, but do I want my family to go through that just because I'm pursuing a story?" That's what they want you they want you to make that calculation.
- Right.
- To try to frighten you.
And all it does, of course, it just makes you more curious about them.
- Right.
- Who are these people? Why are they doing these things? The absolute hard-bound, ironclad rule dictated by L.
Ron Hubbard is that everybody who says something that is in any way viewed by the Church as being derogatory or exposing something improperly or whatever have crimes.
I guarantee you, if you look, you will find them.
- And they believe that.
- Right.
And the problem is that it just isn't a true thing.
So when they can't actually find anything, then they send private investigators out and say, "Ah! He's got to be involved in child pornography, because, you know, the back page of the 'Village Voice' has these ads for pornography on them, so he's got to be involved in it, so you got to find it.
" So then, they're out asking neighbors, "We're investigating Tony Ortega for child pornography with the hope that someone may spring up with something," - and here's a lead.
- Right, right.
But that will go on because there's only one outcome that is acceptable the investigation must disclose horrible, sordid crimes that you're engaged in.
And if they have not disclosed horrible, sordid crimes, they haven't done their investigation right.
You and you and the Church of Scientology have been spying on the BBC.
I don't know what you're talking about.
- Nothing to do with it? - You're being a bit paranoid.
Was I being paranoid? No.
You were being followed.
- We were being followed? - Yes.
And who gave the orders to follow us? It would have come under my purview.
Well, Mike's heard me say this often that I used to think Mike was evil.
How could you not be evil if you're doing this? - No, he's evil.
He is evil.
- [Laughs.]
My interaction with you and with John and many other people since is to try and let you understand that it was never personal.
Mm-hmm.
It was also misguided.
I can't excuse those things.
I can only try and explain this was my mind-set at the time.
No, I've come to understand that, and I've never needed apologies from you.
I know.
You're not just journalists or people that I happen to have an interaction with at some time, I consider all of you are friends of mine now.
- Now.
But let me - Like, personal friends.
I'm trying to cast my mind back to what it was like working, it felt, against you in 2007.
This psychological thing where you're where you no longer trust reality is horrible.
And you took part in it.
So what you're referring to is in 2006, '07.
we did an interview at the Church of Scientology Celebrity Center.
March 2007.
I remember it well.
The galactic warlord who 75 million years ago sort of put people's aliens John, I already answered this, too.
I told you it's none of us know what you're talking about.
It's, like, loony.
It's weird.
It makes you look weird.
I started asking you about my standard questions, one of which is is it true that Scientologists believe in the space alien Satan called Xenu, who brought space aliens to Earth 75 million years ago and blew them up with hydrogen bombs inside volcanos.
You said, "I don't know what you're talking about, - you're a lunatic.
" - Correct.
It's rubbish.
You're asking me about something that's confidential in the Church.
We'll be charged $100,000 any time we disclose what the confidential materials of Scientology are.
Not to mention, we are taught that if we tell you the information, John, you're gonna die.
We don't want you to die, as much as we hate you, you know, I don't want you to die of cancer because I revealed to you or confirmed to you the confidential information.
So here is a thing which calls itself a religion which doesn't tell the outside world about what its core belief is, - its core story.
- Right.
I think it's easy to make fun of Scientology and to point out the unbelievability of Scientology.
But when you do that, you are negating Scientologists' pain.
I wish I could take back what I promoted and defend all of my life.
But, you know, I can't now.
- All of this - Mm-hmm.
This is your way of saying sorry.
Yes, of course.
Looking at the future, I think it very likely you're producer will be harassed.
They will their weaknesses will be explored, and they will be put under more pressure than perhaps they've ever experienced in their life before.
Not just legally, but also other stuff, which is creepy, weird, and sinister.
The Church is gonna seek to discredit everybody that has been involved in the making of this program, from the people who are interviewed, to you, to the production company, to everybody and anybody that has anything to do with this program at all.
Here are all the letters that we've received from the Church.
This production, asking for interviews, back and forth over time for from the beginning of the production.
For the most part, everybody gets this.
Everybody gets lots of letters, you know, acting like they're being wronged and you're not listening to them, blah, blah, blah.
And that has worked.
I personally know of some productions that did not air because this scared them out of it.
But it won't scare you.
So what's the next level? You know, maybe you'll get your own smear website, maybe you'll get some videos of you, maybe the people making the film will get shown up on these kind of things.
That's kind of the spectrum of what you might be facing.
Leah: That's what they do.
They created web sites, they hire P.
I.
s, they try to destroy people's lives, they destroy people's families, then turn around and go, "Look at them trying to get press and trying to make money off their former church.
Why don't they get on with their lives?" [Bleep.]
you.
It doesn't matter to me.
It really doesn't.
The stories that we're telling are true.
And so that's why I just say at the end of the day bull I'm not gonna be intimidated.
The Church will get exposed, and I'm not gonna stop.
I will be really [bleep.]
pissed if I flew all this way and paid money out of my pocket for these guys to say nothing can be done about it.
- So will I.
- I'm hoping that when we meet with these lawyers today, that they say, "You guys have found a way to help people.
" Exactly.
That we now have a path forward - to be able to take action.
- Yeah.
How that's gonna happen, I don't know.
But I am hoping that that is what we will have at the end of the meeting today is, "Okay, we know what to do now.
Yes, there's gonna be some work, oh, yes, it's gonna take a little time.
But this is what now can be done and how we can proceed.
" - Right.
- That's what I'm hoping for.
We're gonna go meet the lawyers in an hour.
I think we should go light a candle across the street.
- There you go.
- I do.
Let's go.
- An adventure.
- And it will bring us good luck.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Hey.
- How are you? Good, and you? - Good.
- Good.
Mary and Joseph! How big is this church? It's huge.
The Church of Scientology taught me everything in my life.
They taught me to attack my critics, and now I'm attacking my critics.
My critics are now Scientologists.
But what I don't think I've adjusted to is the fight.
My fight to defend something that I thought was so good is now the same passion and fight that I'm using to fight them.
And I'm always in fight mode.
But I can't let the Church continue to abuse people and take their money and their lives.
There's a part of me that feels like such a [bleep.]
hypocrite to sit here and attack something that I was part of my whole life because I was offended by people turning on the church.
And now I'm that person.
You're, like, really nervous, huh? I don't want to be disappointed.
You don't want people to get away with That's it.
No matter what it is.
For some reason, I believe that I am the person to help to make it right.
Here we are.
- Okay.
- Your bag.
Thank you.
Thank you, honey.