Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath (2016) s01e08 Episode Script
Ask Me Anything, Part 2 (Special)
1 Man: All right, so, let's get the cameras going.
Leah: Great, okay.
Okay, great.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[ Chuckles .]
Thank you.
Two minutes.
All right, let's just start.
Let's just try to do some shit.
[ Laughs .]
This takes forever.
Man: Cool.
Give us two seconds.
Quiet.
Silence all your cellphones, please.
Okay.
We are ready.
Okay.
Everyone, settle.
Woman: Okay, quiet, please.
Quiet everywhere.
[ Inhales deeply .]
Hello.
Thank you for joining us again, and thank you for your support of this series.
It's been amazing, heartbreaking, and a lot of other adjectives.
Um, so, thank you.
Where we left off in the series said, "To be continued.
" And we are taking action -- trying to take action -- and we can't really talk about, um, what we're trying to do because we actually want to achieve something.
So, that's what we're doing.
So, know that.
There's a lot of things going on behind the scenes that we're not talking about, but just know that it's happening.
Now, because we had so many questions and our last Reddit session was so amazing and we love connecting with you and we love answering all your questions, we just couldn't do it in the last special.
So, hopefully we'll get to more of those questions now.
Mike Rinder is here, and we have a few more contributors that we are very excited about joining us today.
So, let's get to some of these Reddit questions, okay? Umokay.
"From what I've seen of Scientology, it seems like there's a major difference in treatment between celebrity followers and folks in the Sea Org who were tortured, locked in the Hole, beaten publicly by Miscavige, et cetera.
" True.
Yeah, "and what role do celebrities play in the Church?" Well, I know for a fact that certain material is not approved by the Church or -- I-I remember I did a -- a Stuff magazine cover where I was, like, in a bathing suit in one shot and kind of -- Yeah, I've seen that one.
Kind of -- That's disgusting, Mike.
[ Laughs .]
Anyway I was called in by Tom Davis, and I was taken off the Way to Happiness float here in Hollywood.
[ Laughs .]
[ Laughs .]
Well, that's okay.
I've got -- I've got a story about this I'm not sure that I should really tell.
What? When Quentin Tarantino approached John Travlota for a role in "Pulp Fiction" Yeah.
John asked me to review the script And? to tell him what I thought.
And? And his role was a heroin-addict assassin.
Yeah.
And I said, "Oh, John, I don't think that you should do this.
" Oh, really? Yeah.
[ Chuckles .]
Of course.
What a putz.
Yes.
Great -- What great career advice.
I should be an agent.
[ Laughs .]
Oh, God.
But he took it anyway, so that's good.
He -- He ignored -- He ignored me.
Thank God.
Sensibly, he ignored me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But I do want to answer this question about celebrities being treated differently.
And there are not a lot of celebrities in Scientology.
I really want you to think about this for a second because I don't know of another religion that uses their celebrities as much as Scientology does, and that's very purposeful because it gives you the idea that there are a lot of Scientologists who are successful because of Scientology.
Right.
But there's a lot more Catholics.
There's a lot more people who are Jewish.
There's a -- You don't really know people's religions.
And I agree with that.
But how would you say that, Mike? 'Cause you know how celebrities are treated in comparison to the average Scientologist.
I mean, in a word Yeah.
stroked.
Totally.
What happens with celebrities in Scientology -- they are given incredible deference.
They're given special treatment.
Mm-hmm.
They're looked after like they're the most important people in the world.
Very.
And I think that that is what Scientology plays on with celebrities.
Yeah.
And then in exchange for that, they feel that they've got to go out then and tell the world about how great Scientology is.
Yes.
And they are actively pressured to do that.
Right.
The difference with celebrities is, if you're on a TV show for nine years and Kevin James has not become a Scientologist, everybody in the world knows that Kevin James is not a Scientologist, so, Leah, you failed.
Yes, and people are gonna ask that, too, like, "How come you didn't get Kevin James in?" Kevin was very loyal to his religion.
There -- You cannot -- You cannot -- There's no in, you know? And I was asked that many times.
"You're telling me he has no failed purpose? He has no relationship problems? He has no --" I was like, "He doesn't.
He doesn't.
He doesn't!" And he knows -- he even said to me once, "Don't try to get me in your Tom Cruise glare, man.
I'm not -- You can't --" And, you know -- And -- And I -- There was no in.
And I-I didn't feel right about doing it.
Right.
I didn't ever feel right about telling somebody that they were lost and they needed Scientology.
Makes sense.
I just did it within the Church.
Like, I helped Scientologists who were already in, to get them to their next level.
Right.
I felt that that was an acceptable transgression against mankind.
[ Chuckles .]
Um, okay.
"What is the racial makeup of the organization?" Uh, 99.
9% Caucasian.
Why do you think that? Because I think that traditionally and from the very earliest days of Scientology -- or Dianetics, even -- Mm-hmm.
Hubbard appealed to the middle class of America.
That was who he was reaching.
If you go back even at the very earliest photographs of Hubbard's lectures that he delivered on Dianetics Yeah.
and you look at the audience I bet there isn't a single non-Caucasian person in the entire audience of any of those lectures.
Right.
It was only when Isaac Hayes, who at one point got all over David Miscavige and said, "Why are you not reaching out to my people?" Yeah.
did Scientology buy a building in Inglewood and one in Harlem and say, "We're putting a church there.
" Right.
They're not full of people from the local community.
Believe me.
Right.
Subsequent to that, over the last, I guess it's five or seven years or so, there has been a concerted effort by the Church to engage and involve the Nation of Islam in Scientology.
I found something in the teaching of Dianetics of Mr.
L.
Ron Hubbard.
Now, where this is going and how this is gonna end up, I don't really understand because you cannot be Yeah.
anything and a Scientologist.
Right.
You are a Scientologist, and that's it.
Right.
And in fact, when the IRS was asking Scientology questions Yeah.
they responded with an answer that is very revealing.
Ultimately, you may not be a Scientologist and practice another faith.
You cannot be both.
Let's go over some of these.
"What is the Church's stance on homosexuality?" Well, you see, they're -- they're very, um, they are very clever in how they deal with this subject.
The first book that was written was called "Dianetics," and after that was a book called "Science of Survival.
" In the books that every Scientologist has to read, there is a Chart of Human Evaluation, and basically what it does is it teaches you who to look out for in your life, and there's numbers connected to this chart.
And below a certain number on this Chart is the most degraded, aberrated person that you could ever know.
And that classification is called 1.
1.
And that is where L.
Ron Hubbard wrote homosexuality lives, in that band.
That is the sexual pervert.
That is the person who needs so much help, but not really a person worth trying to help.
Right.
I mean, truthfully -- truthfully Yeah.
Scientology has two positions on homosexuality.
One, the public position, which is, "Well, we don't take a position.
" Right.
Internally and for Scientologists, the position is, "There is something very wrong with it, deviant behavior that needs to be dealt with with Scientology.
" Meaning as a person gets to the upper levels of Scientology, the "gayness" will be audited out.
Right.
Leah: Our next guest is Lawerence Wright, who is the writer of "Going Clear," Pulitzer Prize winner.
Um, when I was in Scientology, I wasn't allowed to read Time magazine.
I wasn't allowed to read anything that was derogatory, but your book was amazingly accurate.
And people ask me that all the time -- I'm sure they ask you, too -- "How accurate was his book?" Spot-on.
What did you find immediately that separated the Church of Scientology? What was the thing that you went, "Huh, something's different here, something is not right here"? Well, most religions don't have secrets.
Mm-hmm.
You know, they're -- they're open.
They -- They want you to know what they believe, and they want you, you know -- And you're free to come and go.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's a personal decision.
Scientology is -- is a closet with -- you know, but it locks from the outside.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, once you're inside it, it's very difficult to get out.
And also, it's difficult for outsiders like journalists and scholars to actually penetrate it and understand it because Scientologists have been groomed to tell their story in a particular way to outsiders, and trying to get underneath that veil of secrecy is a real challenge.
Now, what did you do? You called Tom Davis, who is a former spokesperson of the Church of Scientology, and -- and you said, "Hey, I'd like to interview you.
I'd like to go over these things with you" Yeah.
"for the book -- or for the article.
" For the article originally.
For the article.
We sent them a first batch of 900-some-odd queries.
And in response to that, Tommy flew out to the New Yorker offices, along with four lawyers.
It was a very odd interview because Tommy's on one side of the table and I'm on the other.
Their lawyers are all on this side, and our editor and our fact-checkers are on this side.
So, it's just me and Tommy talking, essentially.
Sure.
In the course of that, we talked a little bit about L.
Ron Hubbard's war record.
Okay.
And according to Scientology, he was a war hero.
Mm-hmm.
And he was also wounded.
He was blind and a helpless cripple, he said.
And, uh, and he came out to the hospital here in California, and -- and they couldn't help him.
And he developed those techniques of Dianetics.
Mm-hmm.
And at some point, Tommy said, "If it's true that L.
Ron Hubbard was never wounded in the war and did not use Dianetics techniques to heal himself, then Dianetics is based on a lie and Scientology is based on a lie.
" And everybody on the New Yorker table is like Right.
"That's a fact you can check.
" Right.
You know? This is -- This is -- [ Laughs .]
This is kind of in our wheelhouse.
Right, right.
And so we had already filed a Freedom of Information suit to get Hubbard's war records.
Mm-hmm.
And almost every day of his life in the military is accounted for and all of his, you know, health issues.
Uh, what he had was arthritis in his right hip and conjunctivitis, pink eye Mm-hmm.
nothing that -- no injuries from the war, and no serious injuries at all to support the, um, allegation, you know, that he was a war hero.
They sent us a list of all the medals he had won.
Mm-hmm.
It's a very impressive list.
And then a photograph of all the medals and also, uh, what was called a Notice of Separation from the Navy.
When I asked the archivist -- two of them -- out in St.
Louis, they said, "This is a fraudulent document.
" On the medals, there were things like a -- a Purple Heart with a palm.
Never in the history of the United States have they awarded a Purple Heart with a palm.
There were foreign medals that were typically not awarded to American servicemen.
And there were medals supposedly awarded to Hubbard that hadn't even been created until after he left the service.
And then on the Notice of Separation, it said that -- you know, it listed all of these medals that he had won, and then it was signed by Commander Howard Thompson, I think it was.
As it turned out, when I went through all the records from St.
Louis, I found the Notice of Separation, which was entirely different from the one that the Church sent me.
It turns out there was no Howard Thompson in the Navy at that time.
They were using a font that was not invented in the time -- Mm.
You know, this is a forensic matter.
So, when Tommy made that statement, he essentially allowed us to prove that L.
Ron Hubbard had made up all that information about his war record, and they supplied the proof by giving us this false document.
So then when you then had that information, were you then -- did you then confront Tom Davis? Yes.
And what was their response to it? Their response was their military expert had told them that the records were sheep-dipped.
What? Sheep-dipped.
What the hell's that? That was my response.
Yeah.
And that they were -- In other words, that the military created an entirely false set of records to cover his covert activities for the intelligence agencies that he was working for.
[ Sighs .]
Okay.
And that's the person that the Church has to protect with encasing him in this myth that -- that try to cover the efforts of people like me and others to uncover the truth.
Here are some of the questions from our viewers -- Reddit.
"Do you think your book, 'Going Clear,' and the documentary had an effect on the Church and its followers?" It certainly did 'cause now I have -- You know, when I'm in speaking situations, so often, people are in the audience, and, um, it is very touching to me because again and again, you get stories like the ones you're telling now of people who've lost so much in terms of their families and -- and their fortunes.
I mean, it cleared the way for us to do this show, so Well, thank you.
I applaud you for what you've done.
"Is it true that there is a mansion in California that's kept stocked with food, staffed, and maintained in anticipation of the return of LRH?" Yes, indeed Yes, indeed.
Mike, as you know, there is a -- Actually, there's more than one.
Yes.
Right.
There's at least two in California, right? Right.
There's one in Creston, and there's one at Hemet.
Right.
And, uh -- Well, not Hemet, because the city of Hemet put out a tweet the other day saying the Scientology thing is not in the city of Hemet.
It's in unincorporated Riverside County.
All right, well, now that we got that straight.
Point taken.
[ Laughter .]
In -- You know, in -- in the houses that he has there, you know, his -- his favorite cigarettes, the Kool cigarettes, are there for him, the Thom McAn sandals by the shower door, Louis L'Amour novels on the bedside table, and a table setting for one.
That's correct.
Also, I've heard -- and you can probably tell me -- that, you know, those signals, those two crossed O's that are in the Kool cigarettes are an emblem and that if his spirit is soaring over the earth, he'll be able to look down and spot those O's, those interlocked O's, and he'll know that's the place.
Mike What? Do you want me to respond to that? Is that true, Mike? [ Laughs .]
I have never heard the thing about the two interlocking circles.
Okay.
Even in the position that I was in, there are still all sorts of things that I find out and I go, "I had no idea that that was going on.
" Right.
"I had no idea about this.
I had no --" Yeah.
Even me I know.
the international spokesperson, the head of OSA.
All this -- it's compartmentalized unbelievably, and there is a mechanism that is in place in Scientology that Hubbard put in place very early on -- Either you have not attained the appropriate level.
Mm-hmm.
Either you are not -- You don't have the [bleep.]
rank to ask about it.
Mm-hmm.
You are not privy to the secretive communications that L.
Ron Hubbard dispatched to certain people that you didn't see.
There's always an explanation.
Right.
I have a question for you.
Yeah.
Uh, having come out of this, do you look at the rest of the world in a different way? Yeah.
I-I I-I'm still finding my way.
It's not that easy to just let go of the way Mm-hmm.
um, you were taught to think about everything.
You know, out now in the -- in the -- in the free world, it's -- I find myself thinking, and then I go, "Do you think that way?" You know, I have a thought, and I go, "Is that your thought, or is that what you've been taught?" Mm-hmm.
And so feel like I'm a little bit of a computer breaking down, you know, because I -- I'm finding good people in the world, and I was taught that everybody outside of Scientology Mm-hmm.
was evil or lost.
I felt very elitist.
I was -- And now I'm just a person like everybody else.
Mike: We're now joined by my good friend attorney Ray Jeffrey, one of the few lawyers in the United States who has taken on the Church of Scientology in litigation and lived to tell the story.
How did you get involved in Scientology-related matters? I was contacted to represent Debbie Cook and Wayne Baumgarten.
It's actually -- She's now Debbie Baumgarten.
If they had come to me and said, "Hey, we want to sue the Church of Scientology," I probably would have turned and run the other way, but instead, what happened was they came to me in a terrible situation because they had been sued by the Church of Scientology.
So, I-I took another look at it and ultimately decided to take the case.
Leah: I knew Debbie Cook as a captain of the Flag Service Organization, which, to Scientologists, is the hub of Scientology.
What happened to Debbie was, she was a victim of her own success.
Her organization had, uh, an annual budget.
I think it was $100 million, $150 million.
So, Debbie gets pulled out to work in California directly with David Miscavige, the leader.
Right.
That's when she went through the looking glass, and it was a nightmare.
Now, Debbie sent out this e-mail.
It said, "Hi.
It's Debbie Cook.
I'm in good standing with the Church," because if it didn't say that, people would have just erased it, ignored it, um, and then blocked her.
So, I looked at the e-mail, and I'm like, "Oh, my" It said things in there that we have all experienced as Scientologists.
I was like, "Oh, my God.
" It really affected me.
And for that, she got sued by the Church of Scientology.
Right.
The Church was just going to get an injunction, a court order, telling them to shut up and also damages for what she had already done.
The Church just thought they were gonna squoosh Debbie and Wayne very quickly and the whole thing would be over, and it backfired.
In the one or two days that Debbie was on the stand, she was saying what was happening as far as the abuses and what the Church was doing to her and Wayne.
Yes.
And the Church realized, "We [bleep.]
up.
" He ordered his -- his secretary to slap me, and she, um, slapped me so hard, I fell -- fell over into the chairs.
He was made to, um, lick the bathroom floorclean.
The abuses suffered by Debbie were worse, of course, once she was taken down to the Hole.
It's two double-wide trailers, bars on the window.
There's a guard at all times at the door.
At the time that I went into the Hole in May of 2007, there was over 100 top, um, Scientology International executives that had been put there.
They're supposedly working, but they're doing this bizarre work that doesn't make any sense.
And they're going through these horrifying, uh, interrogations and things like that, and they sleep there.
They're in there 24 hours a day.
The place was infested by ants, so ants would crawl on you.
And there was a -- a two-week period during that time when all the electricity had been shut off, um as ordered by Mr.
Miscavige, and this was, of course, in summer in the desert, and so the temperature in there was about 106.
They're eating slop.
They're sleeping on the floor.
Debbie at one time was made to stand in a tall trash can and have freezing-cold water dumped over her while she was being questioned -- you know, what had she done against the Church? What are her crimes? Yeah.
What are her crimes? All those things.
One time, he -- uh, Mr.
Miscavige ordered his communicator to break my finger if I didn't answer, uh, his question.
It -- It sounds unbelievable.
Yeah.
But that was her testimony.
Man: Were you used to, in your life, getting beaten up? Was that something you were used to? No, never.
And you were a 40-something-year-old woman with a very, very respected job.
Yes.
And so the Church's response to that was what? They -- They really never responded, um, in -- in the courtroom.
Before Debbie could even finish all of her testimony, they, uh, called it quits.
What's completely different than every other case I've ever been involved with was that the -- Scientology does not just try to defeat your client and win the merits of the case against your client, but they try to attack you, the lawyer, personally.
I have never had that done in my career.
And every day, it seemed like, I got threatening letters from their lawyers, whether we were in court or -- or not.
Uh, they file motions to disqualify the lawyers.
I've been called unethical and even immoral.
In -- In my entire career, I've never had a complaint against me.
Uh, they -- they're on constant offensive against the lawyers.
Leah: Our next guest is Steve Hassan.
He's a cult expert.
He's written books.
You were a member of a cult, the Moonies.
Indeed.
And, um, I'm interested to talk to you because most Scientologists and people in cults don't really seek help.
I've noticed that with Scientologists a lot.
And not only that, but Scientologists are programmed against mental-health professionals, which I am one, and they're heavily programmed against "deprogrammers" Right.
which is what I was doing after my own deprogramming out of the Moon cult in 1976.
I was a nice Jewish boy from Flushing, Queens, who wanted to be an English professor.
My girlfriend dumped me.
Three women flirted with me in the college cafeteria, and within two weeks, I'm bowing to an altar thinking Moon is the Messiah, that Armageddon is gonna happen Yeah.
we have to take over the world and save the world.
What happens with mind control is your real self is broken down and a new identity is created that keeps you dependent and obedient.
Right.
But your real self, even if you're born in a cult or raised in a cult, we have an authentic self that wants love, wants truth, wants goodness.
We don't want to be exploited or abused.
Right.
So there's a dissonance between our conscience and our heart and the cult identity.
Right.
Now, when I was Moonie, I was convinced I had to save your soul.
Mike, if I met you, I would try very hard to learn everything about your background and figure out, in Scientology words, your "ruin" Leah: Mm-hmm.
Right.
To figure out the -- the -- which buttons to press to motivate you to come to a 3-day workshop and a 7-day workshop and a 21-day workshop and a 40-day workshop.
Do you -- Do you think that Scientology has been created and designed to be the best there is, if you were gonna set out to create a mind-control organization, that this would kind of be what it looks like? If you step back and study other destructive mind-control cults, you'll have a perspective on Scientology.
Scientology has put out a lot of fair-game, dead-agent material against me.
Why? Because you -- I mean, you've written books.
I'm assuming that you put them in Well, I started out -- The first TV show I did, I did it with an ex-Scientologist, and I was labeled an S.
P.
because I was -- I was learning Scientology was a cult, and my friend who was an ex-Scientologist was learning the Moonies were a cult.
A cult.
There are universal patterns of manipulation.
Someone who's skilled can figure out how to systematically and incrementally manipulate you into a vulnerable, isolated place and start to control your behavior, control your information, control your thinking, to make you dependent and obedient.
There are millions and millions of people in mind-control cults.
The people who I've worked with who've been in Scientology have some of the most deleterious long-term effects, psychological effects.
I want to say I watched every single episode.
[ Voice breaking .]
I've loved what you've been doing.
Thank you.
I'm getting emotional now 'cause I've cried every single episode.
Thank you.
Oh, my God.
Don't make me cry.
Scientology has threatened me, gone through my trash.
You did one about the trash bags.
I loved that episode.
They've had Nazi -- people in Nazi uniforms picketing outside my office, telling my neighbors what an evil person -- I'm an anti-religious bigot.
I have to tell you, I was scared shitless of you for so many years.
I love that you are modeling for ex-members of thousands of other cults that you can be a leader, you can do horrible things, and then you can wake up and be a human being a decent, law-abiding human being.
That's so exciting.
Mike: Thank you.
So, this opportunity to come on -- I was like, "Yes, I have to do this," but I'm emotional.
Leah: I'm sorry.
I have to stop -- I have to -- The person who -- I need a tissue.
[ Sniffles .]
I'm sorry.
Man: Let's, uh Am I being too -- No, he really affected me.
Like, I'm really a little shocked by that, and I'm just, like -- we're just moving past it.
I mean, just Thank you.
Yeah.
Woman: Can we go into that? You know, we'll save you a little bit for later.
Are you okay? I-I didn't know any of -- I didn't know that that had happened to him.
The harassment and the Yeah, but I didn't know he was soanyway.
I just think what you're doing is heroic.
I really do.
I think it's so cool.
You know, we're done filming the first season, so I'm like now kind of, like, overly sensitive to hearing yet another story, you know? Man: We can take five.
Leah: I'd rather -- I'd rahter -- yes.
Uh-huh.
Quiet, please.
All right, so, here's a Reddit question for you.
And -- And by the way, anybody could chime in.
Man: Okay.
Okay.
Um, "If members stuck in prison-like conditions at Gold Base are put through such rigorous labor and mistreatment, what goes through their minds that rationalizes staying in such a place?" In my understanding, the cult identity is programmed to be dependent and obedient and follow the rules, and their desires to be free and get out is suppressed.
So there's a constant war Right.
going on inside.
Yeah, and you're told that your wanting to leave is 'cause of your transgressions, and then you're put on a interro-- Right.
Yeah.
Again, so the blame is on you that if you just do what you need to do, you can get out of this and you can help save the planet.
Mm-hmm.
Ray: It is so deeply ingrained, "I messed up," and when I first was representing Debbie Cook and I was trying to figure out, "Wait, why would somebody be made to lick the floor of the bathroom" And stay.
Well, that -- that -- this was even years afer she had left.
"Well, um, that's if they really messed up.
" You smiled when you weren't supposed to smile.
Uh, you didn't smile when you were supposed to smile.
You spoke too soon.
You spoke too slowly.
All cults believe the ends justify the means.
Because it's such a great good Right.
we can lie and cheat and steal and frame and do criminal activity.
You can create an ideal world by criminal activity.
But have you seen any other organization go after journalists Mike: Critics.
go after its critics? Oh, not -- not -- So, thank you for asking it that way.
Not as viciously, systematically [ Chuckles .]
with celebrities and such, uh, abuse of the legal system.
Scientology is in a class of its own.
When it comes to Scientology, there are law review articles written about their, uh, excessive tactics in court.
When you're a lawyer standing up in court, you can point to that stuff as legitmate legal authorities and commentary on this kind of behavior, so I think it is a little different than most of these other groups.
Yeah, and all the other groups love celebrities, but -- but no group has had Celebrity Centres.
Lawrence: I think that was a stroke of genius on -- on Hubbard's part because he saw that there's one thing that Americans really do worship, and that is celebrity.
Mm.
And that's the reason he set his church here in Los Angeles, and that's the reason the Celebrity Centre is just down the street.
It's all geared, and celebrities are like athletes on Wheaties boxes for the Church.
You know, they -- they're selling a product.
Mm.
Leah: Yeah.
So, Steve, one of our Reddit questions was, "What is the difference, similarities, between Scientology and other cults?" If we look at behaviors and get away from the crazy beliefs, the parallels are all in the behaviors.
Yes, they control sleep.
Yes, I don't have vacation.
Yes, I have to ask permission for every major life decision.
Yes, I-I can't talk to ex-members or critics.
Mm-hmm.
You know, yes, I-I-I-I need to snitch.
That was another theme that was universal.
All right, so, Steve, we have been asked -- Mike and I and -- and the show -- what -- what we can do to get people who are in out.
And we said, basically, nothing.
They have to have their moment when they wake up.
I'm sure there were many people who thought, "Mike Rinder will never wake up.
" Mm-hmm.
"Leah will never wake up.
" That's not my life work or my experience.
Leah: So, how -- how -- how do you recommend -- I don't believe that someone has to be an alcoholic and hit rock bottom in order to get help.
When I was in the Moonies, I couldn't think anything bad about Moon, th-the Divine Principle, or the Unification Church, but I could think bad things about Scientology Sure.
and how it's a mind-control cult [ Laughs .]
or the Hari Krishnas or the Children of God Yeah.
or any number of other cults.
Yeah.
If someone approached me when I was in the Moonies, as fanatical as I was, and I was trained to die or kill on command.
Like, take a submachine gun, Steve, and shoot everyone in this room, because I was trained never to allow a doubt, I would have pulled the trigger Right.
in my state of mind.
If -- If people had approached me and asked me, "What do you think of Scientology?" I'd be like, "That's a horrible cult.
It's obviously brainwashing.
" Yeah, but your shit sounds crazier than our shit.
[ Laughter .]
But the -- But the -- But the next step -- The next step after you're engaging with someone in an intellectual discussion about brainwashing is, "I'm just curious -- in your group, are you allowed to talk to former members?" Yeah.
The general strategy is, don't give up, focus on what's within your control, engage other people from other groups, and evolve a strategy to -- to incrementally get them the information they need in order to get help.
I think the main duty, the main thing we can accomplish is drying up the pool of future recruits.
But if we do spread the word, there's a -- there's a lot of pain out there that -- And a lot of the former Scientologists aren't like you.
They're living in the shadows Most are.
in shame and guilt and -- and -- and -- and that pain, until we started airing, uh, all this information, had nowhere to go.
Leah: Yeah.
Good point.
Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.
It was our pleasure.
Thank you.
And thank you for all that you've done.
Really.
We couldn't do it without you.
Mike: Yeah, all three of you.
Exactly.
You cleared the way.
You took the first punches.
[ Chuckles .]
So, thank you.
Okay, so, here's some more Reddit questions.
You ready? Ready.
[ Chuckles .]
Okay.
"Why can some people leave Scientology and some people have to escape?" Well, the people that have to escape are the people that are in the Sea Org.
There's a confusion between the 24-hour-a-day, 7-day-a-week, 365-day-a-year Church employees called Sea Organization members Mm-hmm.
and the Scientologists who pay money.
And the Scientologists who pay money are serviced by The Sea Org members.
the Sea Org members that provide the training, the auditing.
And the Sea Organization members typically live in facilities provided by the Church, controlled by the Church, with security guards around the outside.
They don't go home to a house.
Right.
"Do you need money to join? Can I be a regular guy or homeless, for that matter? Can I join with no contribution?" Now, remember, the Church responds with "Absolutely!" "We have free services.
" "We have free services and charity.
" And I've never seen any of them.
Okay, but there are little things, Mike.
You can go in for a seminar.
Correct.
You can do free things on the Internet now.
However, if you wish to make any progress up the bridge to spiritual freedom Mm-hmm.
you've got to have money.
Or your life Yeah.
Oh, you can join the Sea Org and get it for free.
meaning you can join the Sea Organization or join staff and get it for free.
Unless you leave.
Then you're -- Unless you leave, and then you didn't get it for free.
Yeah, 'cause you're billed for it.
Correct.
All right.
"Hey, Leah, if you could get a one-on-one with David Miscavige right now, what would you say to him?" Huh.
What would I say to David Miscavige? The reality of it is, I-I would love to sit in a room and talk to him.
I would love to say, "Stop doing what you're doing.
Stop hurting people.
You know what we're saying is true.
You need to stop this.
You have the power to turn things around.
You have the power to abolish these policies.
With all the damage that you've done, take this opportunity to do something right.
" I mean, honestly, that's what I would hope I would say.
I think that's probably what you would say.
Yeah.
And it would all go by like that.
You're right, I mean, 'cause still, I would be thinking there's some -- some shred of decency in him.
Yeah, there's not much -- But I would be wrong.
The shred is little.
Right.
Mike and I want to thank you for once again tuning in, for supporting this -- this series.
I'm still kind of reeling from the information that I've received and -- and -- and information that you don't know about that we're receiving behind the scenes.
It continues to break my heart, but it continues to prove to -- to me that there are decent people in the world that have nothing to do with Scientology.
[ Voice breaking .]
And I -- I just I -- Thank you.
I-It's so weird to be so emotional today, but it's been a tough ride.
And I-I really didn't expect for people to support us the way that they did and the people -- and people that they know nothing about.
I'm, like, not crying from being upset.
I'm crying because I'm so touched by it all.
But I haven't been able to really say that in the show because, you know, I didn't know people were gonna receive it when we were filming it.
I certainly only wanted them to do eight episodes, uh, because this has been the least amount of fun I've ever had in my life, um, but the most rewarding.
I just don't know that we're done.
Well, I-I know for sure, Leah, I'm not done.
Regardless of this program, I can't just abandon all of these people who now feel that they have a hope Yeah.
that something actually is going to change and something is gonna be done about that and there's something that they can do about it, even if that is only providing support.
It's overwhelming, the love that has poured in Yeah.
in doing the show.
It -- It is not what I expected.
And it has only served to make me more determined to keep going and to keep finding a way to put an end to the pain that people are suffering.
Yeah.
Thank youfor being my partner through this.
And thank you.
And, uh, you'll probablysee us soon 'cause God knows I can't let anything go.
But now I have to pee.
Bye.
Leah: Great, okay.
Okay, great.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[ Chuckles .]
Thank you.
Two minutes.
All right, let's just start.
Let's just try to do some shit.
[ Laughs .]
This takes forever.
Man: Cool.
Give us two seconds.
Quiet.
Silence all your cellphones, please.
Okay.
We are ready.
Okay.
Everyone, settle.
Woman: Okay, quiet, please.
Quiet everywhere.
[ Inhales deeply .]
Hello.
Thank you for joining us again, and thank you for your support of this series.
It's been amazing, heartbreaking, and a lot of other adjectives.
Um, so, thank you.
Where we left off in the series said, "To be continued.
" And we are taking action -- trying to take action -- and we can't really talk about, um, what we're trying to do because we actually want to achieve something.
So, that's what we're doing.
So, know that.
There's a lot of things going on behind the scenes that we're not talking about, but just know that it's happening.
Now, because we had so many questions and our last Reddit session was so amazing and we love connecting with you and we love answering all your questions, we just couldn't do it in the last special.
So, hopefully we'll get to more of those questions now.
Mike Rinder is here, and we have a few more contributors that we are very excited about joining us today.
So, let's get to some of these Reddit questions, okay? Umokay.
"From what I've seen of Scientology, it seems like there's a major difference in treatment between celebrity followers and folks in the Sea Org who were tortured, locked in the Hole, beaten publicly by Miscavige, et cetera.
" True.
Yeah, "and what role do celebrities play in the Church?" Well, I know for a fact that certain material is not approved by the Church or -- I-I remember I did a -- a Stuff magazine cover where I was, like, in a bathing suit in one shot and kind of -- Yeah, I've seen that one.
Kind of -- That's disgusting, Mike.
[ Laughs .]
Anyway I was called in by Tom Davis, and I was taken off the Way to Happiness float here in Hollywood.
[ Laughs .]
[ Laughs .]
Well, that's okay.
I've got -- I've got a story about this I'm not sure that I should really tell.
What? When Quentin Tarantino approached John Travlota for a role in "Pulp Fiction" Yeah.
John asked me to review the script And? to tell him what I thought.
And? And his role was a heroin-addict assassin.
Yeah.
And I said, "Oh, John, I don't think that you should do this.
" Oh, really? Yeah.
[ Chuckles .]
Of course.
What a putz.
Yes.
Great -- What great career advice.
I should be an agent.
[ Laughs .]
Oh, God.
But he took it anyway, so that's good.
He -- He ignored -- He ignored me.
Thank God.
Sensibly, he ignored me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But I do want to answer this question about celebrities being treated differently.
And there are not a lot of celebrities in Scientology.
I really want you to think about this for a second because I don't know of another religion that uses their celebrities as much as Scientology does, and that's very purposeful because it gives you the idea that there are a lot of Scientologists who are successful because of Scientology.
Right.
But there's a lot more Catholics.
There's a lot more people who are Jewish.
There's a -- You don't really know people's religions.
And I agree with that.
But how would you say that, Mike? 'Cause you know how celebrities are treated in comparison to the average Scientologist.
I mean, in a word Yeah.
stroked.
Totally.
What happens with celebrities in Scientology -- they are given incredible deference.
They're given special treatment.
Mm-hmm.
They're looked after like they're the most important people in the world.
Very.
And I think that that is what Scientology plays on with celebrities.
Yeah.
And then in exchange for that, they feel that they've got to go out then and tell the world about how great Scientology is.
Yes.
And they are actively pressured to do that.
Right.
The difference with celebrities is, if you're on a TV show for nine years and Kevin James has not become a Scientologist, everybody in the world knows that Kevin James is not a Scientologist, so, Leah, you failed.
Yes, and people are gonna ask that, too, like, "How come you didn't get Kevin James in?" Kevin was very loyal to his religion.
There -- You cannot -- You cannot -- There's no in, you know? And I was asked that many times.
"You're telling me he has no failed purpose? He has no relationship problems? He has no --" I was like, "He doesn't.
He doesn't.
He doesn't!" And he knows -- he even said to me once, "Don't try to get me in your Tom Cruise glare, man.
I'm not -- You can't --" And, you know -- And -- And I -- There was no in.
And I-I didn't feel right about doing it.
Right.
I didn't ever feel right about telling somebody that they were lost and they needed Scientology.
Makes sense.
I just did it within the Church.
Like, I helped Scientologists who were already in, to get them to their next level.
Right.
I felt that that was an acceptable transgression against mankind.
[ Chuckles .]
Um, okay.
"What is the racial makeup of the organization?" Uh, 99.
9% Caucasian.
Why do you think that? Because I think that traditionally and from the very earliest days of Scientology -- or Dianetics, even -- Mm-hmm.
Hubbard appealed to the middle class of America.
That was who he was reaching.
If you go back even at the very earliest photographs of Hubbard's lectures that he delivered on Dianetics Yeah.
and you look at the audience I bet there isn't a single non-Caucasian person in the entire audience of any of those lectures.
Right.
It was only when Isaac Hayes, who at one point got all over David Miscavige and said, "Why are you not reaching out to my people?" Yeah.
did Scientology buy a building in Inglewood and one in Harlem and say, "We're putting a church there.
" Right.
They're not full of people from the local community.
Believe me.
Right.
Subsequent to that, over the last, I guess it's five or seven years or so, there has been a concerted effort by the Church to engage and involve the Nation of Islam in Scientology.
I found something in the teaching of Dianetics of Mr.
L.
Ron Hubbard.
Now, where this is going and how this is gonna end up, I don't really understand because you cannot be Yeah.
anything and a Scientologist.
Right.
You are a Scientologist, and that's it.
Right.
And in fact, when the IRS was asking Scientology questions Yeah.
they responded with an answer that is very revealing.
Ultimately, you may not be a Scientologist and practice another faith.
You cannot be both.
Let's go over some of these.
"What is the Church's stance on homosexuality?" Well, you see, they're -- they're very, um, they are very clever in how they deal with this subject.
The first book that was written was called "Dianetics," and after that was a book called "Science of Survival.
" In the books that every Scientologist has to read, there is a Chart of Human Evaluation, and basically what it does is it teaches you who to look out for in your life, and there's numbers connected to this chart.
And below a certain number on this Chart is the most degraded, aberrated person that you could ever know.
And that classification is called 1.
1.
And that is where L.
Ron Hubbard wrote homosexuality lives, in that band.
That is the sexual pervert.
That is the person who needs so much help, but not really a person worth trying to help.
Right.
I mean, truthfully -- truthfully Yeah.
Scientology has two positions on homosexuality.
One, the public position, which is, "Well, we don't take a position.
" Right.
Internally and for Scientologists, the position is, "There is something very wrong with it, deviant behavior that needs to be dealt with with Scientology.
" Meaning as a person gets to the upper levels of Scientology, the "gayness" will be audited out.
Right.
Leah: Our next guest is Lawerence Wright, who is the writer of "Going Clear," Pulitzer Prize winner.
Um, when I was in Scientology, I wasn't allowed to read Time magazine.
I wasn't allowed to read anything that was derogatory, but your book was amazingly accurate.
And people ask me that all the time -- I'm sure they ask you, too -- "How accurate was his book?" Spot-on.
What did you find immediately that separated the Church of Scientology? What was the thing that you went, "Huh, something's different here, something is not right here"? Well, most religions don't have secrets.
Mm-hmm.
You know, they're -- they're open.
They -- They want you to know what they believe, and they want you, you know -- And you're free to come and go.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's a personal decision.
Scientology is -- is a closet with -- you know, but it locks from the outside.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, once you're inside it, it's very difficult to get out.
And also, it's difficult for outsiders like journalists and scholars to actually penetrate it and understand it because Scientologists have been groomed to tell their story in a particular way to outsiders, and trying to get underneath that veil of secrecy is a real challenge.
Now, what did you do? You called Tom Davis, who is a former spokesperson of the Church of Scientology, and -- and you said, "Hey, I'd like to interview you.
I'd like to go over these things with you" Yeah.
"for the book -- or for the article.
" For the article originally.
For the article.
We sent them a first batch of 900-some-odd queries.
And in response to that, Tommy flew out to the New Yorker offices, along with four lawyers.
It was a very odd interview because Tommy's on one side of the table and I'm on the other.
Their lawyers are all on this side, and our editor and our fact-checkers are on this side.
So, it's just me and Tommy talking, essentially.
Sure.
In the course of that, we talked a little bit about L.
Ron Hubbard's war record.
Okay.
And according to Scientology, he was a war hero.
Mm-hmm.
And he was also wounded.
He was blind and a helpless cripple, he said.
And, uh, and he came out to the hospital here in California, and -- and they couldn't help him.
And he developed those techniques of Dianetics.
Mm-hmm.
And at some point, Tommy said, "If it's true that L.
Ron Hubbard was never wounded in the war and did not use Dianetics techniques to heal himself, then Dianetics is based on a lie and Scientology is based on a lie.
" And everybody on the New Yorker table is like Right.
"That's a fact you can check.
" Right.
You know? This is -- This is -- [ Laughs .]
This is kind of in our wheelhouse.
Right, right.
And so we had already filed a Freedom of Information suit to get Hubbard's war records.
Mm-hmm.
And almost every day of his life in the military is accounted for and all of his, you know, health issues.
Uh, what he had was arthritis in his right hip and conjunctivitis, pink eye Mm-hmm.
nothing that -- no injuries from the war, and no serious injuries at all to support the, um, allegation, you know, that he was a war hero.
They sent us a list of all the medals he had won.
Mm-hmm.
It's a very impressive list.
And then a photograph of all the medals and also, uh, what was called a Notice of Separation from the Navy.
When I asked the archivist -- two of them -- out in St.
Louis, they said, "This is a fraudulent document.
" On the medals, there were things like a -- a Purple Heart with a palm.
Never in the history of the United States have they awarded a Purple Heart with a palm.
There were foreign medals that were typically not awarded to American servicemen.
And there were medals supposedly awarded to Hubbard that hadn't even been created until after he left the service.
And then on the Notice of Separation, it said that -- you know, it listed all of these medals that he had won, and then it was signed by Commander Howard Thompson, I think it was.
As it turned out, when I went through all the records from St.
Louis, I found the Notice of Separation, which was entirely different from the one that the Church sent me.
It turns out there was no Howard Thompson in the Navy at that time.
They were using a font that was not invented in the time -- Mm.
You know, this is a forensic matter.
So, when Tommy made that statement, he essentially allowed us to prove that L.
Ron Hubbard had made up all that information about his war record, and they supplied the proof by giving us this false document.
So then when you then had that information, were you then -- did you then confront Tom Davis? Yes.
And what was their response to it? Their response was their military expert had told them that the records were sheep-dipped.
What? Sheep-dipped.
What the hell's that? That was my response.
Yeah.
And that they were -- In other words, that the military created an entirely false set of records to cover his covert activities for the intelligence agencies that he was working for.
[ Sighs .]
Okay.
And that's the person that the Church has to protect with encasing him in this myth that -- that try to cover the efforts of people like me and others to uncover the truth.
Here are some of the questions from our viewers -- Reddit.
"Do you think your book, 'Going Clear,' and the documentary had an effect on the Church and its followers?" It certainly did 'cause now I have -- You know, when I'm in speaking situations, so often, people are in the audience, and, um, it is very touching to me because again and again, you get stories like the ones you're telling now of people who've lost so much in terms of their families and -- and their fortunes.
I mean, it cleared the way for us to do this show, so Well, thank you.
I applaud you for what you've done.
"Is it true that there is a mansion in California that's kept stocked with food, staffed, and maintained in anticipation of the return of LRH?" Yes, indeed Yes, indeed.
Mike, as you know, there is a -- Actually, there's more than one.
Yes.
Right.
There's at least two in California, right? Right.
There's one in Creston, and there's one at Hemet.
Right.
And, uh -- Well, not Hemet, because the city of Hemet put out a tweet the other day saying the Scientology thing is not in the city of Hemet.
It's in unincorporated Riverside County.
All right, well, now that we got that straight.
Point taken.
[ Laughter .]
In -- You know, in -- in the houses that he has there, you know, his -- his favorite cigarettes, the Kool cigarettes, are there for him, the Thom McAn sandals by the shower door, Louis L'Amour novels on the bedside table, and a table setting for one.
That's correct.
Also, I've heard -- and you can probably tell me -- that, you know, those signals, those two crossed O's that are in the Kool cigarettes are an emblem and that if his spirit is soaring over the earth, he'll be able to look down and spot those O's, those interlocked O's, and he'll know that's the place.
Mike What? Do you want me to respond to that? Is that true, Mike? [ Laughs .]
I have never heard the thing about the two interlocking circles.
Okay.
Even in the position that I was in, there are still all sorts of things that I find out and I go, "I had no idea that that was going on.
" Right.
"I had no idea about this.
I had no --" Yeah.
Even me I know.
the international spokesperson, the head of OSA.
All this -- it's compartmentalized unbelievably, and there is a mechanism that is in place in Scientology that Hubbard put in place very early on -- Either you have not attained the appropriate level.
Mm-hmm.
Either you are not -- You don't have the [bleep.]
rank to ask about it.
Mm-hmm.
You are not privy to the secretive communications that L.
Ron Hubbard dispatched to certain people that you didn't see.
There's always an explanation.
Right.
I have a question for you.
Yeah.
Uh, having come out of this, do you look at the rest of the world in a different way? Yeah.
I-I I-I'm still finding my way.
It's not that easy to just let go of the way Mm-hmm.
um, you were taught to think about everything.
You know, out now in the -- in the -- in the free world, it's -- I find myself thinking, and then I go, "Do you think that way?" You know, I have a thought, and I go, "Is that your thought, or is that what you've been taught?" Mm-hmm.
And so feel like I'm a little bit of a computer breaking down, you know, because I -- I'm finding good people in the world, and I was taught that everybody outside of Scientology Mm-hmm.
was evil or lost.
I felt very elitist.
I was -- And now I'm just a person like everybody else.
Mike: We're now joined by my good friend attorney Ray Jeffrey, one of the few lawyers in the United States who has taken on the Church of Scientology in litigation and lived to tell the story.
How did you get involved in Scientology-related matters? I was contacted to represent Debbie Cook and Wayne Baumgarten.
It's actually -- She's now Debbie Baumgarten.
If they had come to me and said, "Hey, we want to sue the Church of Scientology," I probably would have turned and run the other way, but instead, what happened was they came to me in a terrible situation because they had been sued by the Church of Scientology.
So, I-I took another look at it and ultimately decided to take the case.
Leah: I knew Debbie Cook as a captain of the Flag Service Organization, which, to Scientologists, is the hub of Scientology.
What happened to Debbie was, she was a victim of her own success.
Her organization had, uh, an annual budget.
I think it was $100 million, $150 million.
So, Debbie gets pulled out to work in California directly with David Miscavige, the leader.
Right.
That's when she went through the looking glass, and it was a nightmare.
Now, Debbie sent out this e-mail.
It said, "Hi.
It's Debbie Cook.
I'm in good standing with the Church," because if it didn't say that, people would have just erased it, ignored it, um, and then blocked her.
So, I looked at the e-mail, and I'm like, "Oh, my" It said things in there that we have all experienced as Scientologists.
I was like, "Oh, my God.
" It really affected me.
And for that, she got sued by the Church of Scientology.
Right.
The Church was just going to get an injunction, a court order, telling them to shut up and also damages for what she had already done.
The Church just thought they were gonna squoosh Debbie and Wayne very quickly and the whole thing would be over, and it backfired.
In the one or two days that Debbie was on the stand, she was saying what was happening as far as the abuses and what the Church was doing to her and Wayne.
Yes.
And the Church realized, "We [bleep.]
up.
" He ordered his -- his secretary to slap me, and she, um, slapped me so hard, I fell -- fell over into the chairs.
He was made to, um, lick the bathroom floorclean.
The abuses suffered by Debbie were worse, of course, once she was taken down to the Hole.
It's two double-wide trailers, bars on the window.
There's a guard at all times at the door.
At the time that I went into the Hole in May of 2007, there was over 100 top, um, Scientology International executives that had been put there.
They're supposedly working, but they're doing this bizarre work that doesn't make any sense.
And they're going through these horrifying, uh, interrogations and things like that, and they sleep there.
They're in there 24 hours a day.
The place was infested by ants, so ants would crawl on you.
And there was a -- a two-week period during that time when all the electricity had been shut off, um as ordered by Mr.
Miscavige, and this was, of course, in summer in the desert, and so the temperature in there was about 106.
They're eating slop.
They're sleeping on the floor.
Debbie at one time was made to stand in a tall trash can and have freezing-cold water dumped over her while she was being questioned -- you know, what had she done against the Church? What are her crimes? Yeah.
What are her crimes? All those things.
One time, he -- uh, Mr.
Miscavige ordered his communicator to break my finger if I didn't answer, uh, his question.
It -- It sounds unbelievable.
Yeah.
But that was her testimony.
Man: Were you used to, in your life, getting beaten up? Was that something you were used to? No, never.
And you were a 40-something-year-old woman with a very, very respected job.
Yes.
And so the Church's response to that was what? They -- They really never responded, um, in -- in the courtroom.
Before Debbie could even finish all of her testimony, they, uh, called it quits.
What's completely different than every other case I've ever been involved with was that the -- Scientology does not just try to defeat your client and win the merits of the case against your client, but they try to attack you, the lawyer, personally.
I have never had that done in my career.
And every day, it seemed like, I got threatening letters from their lawyers, whether we were in court or -- or not.
Uh, they file motions to disqualify the lawyers.
I've been called unethical and even immoral.
In -- In my entire career, I've never had a complaint against me.
Uh, they -- they're on constant offensive against the lawyers.
Leah: Our next guest is Steve Hassan.
He's a cult expert.
He's written books.
You were a member of a cult, the Moonies.
Indeed.
And, um, I'm interested to talk to you because most Scientologists and people in cults don't really seek help.
I've noticed that with Scientologists a lot.
And not only that, but Scientologists are programmed against mental-health professionals, which I am one, and they're heavily programmed against "deprogrammers" Right.
which is what I was doing after my own deprogramming out of the Moon cult in 1976.
I was a nice Jewish boy from Flushing, Queens, who wanted to be an English professor.
My girlfriend dumped me.
Three women flirted with me in the college cafeteria, and within two weeks, I'm bowing to an altar thinking Moon is the Messiah, that Armageddon is gonna happen Yeah.
we have to take over the world and save the world.
What happens with mind control is your real self is broken down and a new identity is created that keeps you dependent and obedient.
Right.
But your real self, even if you're born in a cult or raised in a cult, we have an authentic self that wants love, wants truth, wants goodness.
We don't want to be exploited or abused.
Right.
So there's a dissonance between our conscience and our heart and the cult identity.
Right.
Now, when I was Moonie, I was convinced I had to save your soul.
Mike, if I met you, I would try very hard to learn everything about your background and figure out, in Scientology words, your "ruin" Leah: Mm-hmm.
Right.
To figure out the -- the -- which buttons to press to motivate you to come to a 3-day workshop and a 7-day workshop and a 21-day workshop and a 40-day workshop.
Do you -- Do you think that Scientology has been created and designed to be the best there is, if you were gonna set out to create a mind-control organization, that this would kind of be what it looks like? If you step back and study other destructive mind-control cults, you'll have a perspective on Scientology.
Scientology has put out a lot of fair-game, dead-agent material against me.
Why? Because you -- I mean, you've written books.
I'm assuming that you put them in Well, I started out -- The first TV show I did, I did it with an ex-Scientologist, and I was labeled an S.
P.
because I was -- I was learning Scientology was a cult, and my friend who was an ex-Scientologist was learning the Moonies were a cult.
A cult.
There are universal patterns of manipulation.
Someone who's skilled can figure out how to systematically and incrementally manipulate you into a vulnerable, isolated place and start to control your behavior, control your information, control your thinking, to make you dependent and obedient.
There are millions and millions of people in mind-control cults.
The people who I've worked with who've been in Scientology have some of the most deleterious long-term effects, psychological effects.
I want to say I watched every single episode.
[ Voice breaking .]
I've loved what you've been doing.
Thank you.
I'm getting emotional now 'cause I've cried every single episode.
Thank you.
Oh, my God.
Don't make me cry.
Scientology has threatened me, gone through my trash.
You did one about the trash bags.
I loved that episode.
They've had Nazi -- people in Nazi uniforms picketing outside my office, telling my neighbors what an evil person -- I'm an anti-religious bigot.
I have to tell you, I was scared shitless of you for so many years.
I love that you are modeling for ex-members of thousands of other cults that you can be a leader, you can do horrible things, and then you can wake up and be a human being a decent, law-abiding human being.
That's so exciting.
Mike: Thank you.
So, this opportunity to come on -- I was like, "Yes, I have to do this," but I'm emotional.
Leah: I'm sorry.
I have to stop -- I have to -- The person who -- I need a tissue.
[ Sniffles .]
I'm sorry.
Man: Let's, uh Am I being too -- No, he really affected me.
Like, I'm really a little shocked by that, and I'm just, like -- we're just moving past it.
I mean, just Thank you.
Yeah.
Woman: Can we go into that? You know, we'll save you a little bit for later.
Are you okay? I-I didn't know any of -- I didn't know that that had happened to him.
The harassment and the Yeah, but I didn't know he was soanyway.
I just think what you're doing is heroic.
I really do.
I think it's so cool.
You know, we're done filming the first season, so I'm like now kind of, like, overly sensitive to hearing yet another story, you know? Man: We can take five.
Leah: I'd rather -- I'd rahter -- yes.
Uh-huh.
Quiet, please.
All right, so, here's a Reddit question for you.
And -- And by the way, anybody could chime in.
Man: Okay.
Okay.
Um, "If members stuck in prison-like conditions at Gold Base are put through such rigorous labor and mistreatment, what goes through their minds that rationalizes staying in such a place?" In my understanding, the cult identity is programmed to be dependent and obedient and follow the rules, and their desires to be free and get out is suppressed.
So there's a constant war Right.
going on inside.
Yeah, and you're told that your wanting to leave is 'cause of your transgressions, and then you're put on a interro-- Right.
Yeah.
Again, so the blame is on you that if you just do what you need to do, you can get out of this and you can help save the planet.
Mm-hmm.
Ray: It is so deeply ingrained, "I messed up," and when I first was representing Debbie Cook and I was trying to figure out, "Wait, why would somebody be made to lick the floor of the bathroom" And stay.
Well, that -- that -- this was even years afer she had left.
"Well, um, that's if they really messed up.
" You smiled when you weren't supposed to smile.
Uh, you didn't smile when you were supposed to smile.
You spoke too soon.
You spoke too slowly.
All cults believe the ends justify the means.
Because it's such a great good Right.
we can lie and cheat and steal and frame and do criminal activity.
You can create an ideal world by criminal activity.
But have you seen any other organization go after journalists Mike: Critics.
go after its critics? Oh, not -- not -- So, thank you for asking it that way.
Not as viciously, systematically [ Chuckles .]
with celebrities and such, uh, abuse of the legal system.
Scientology is in a class of its own.
When it comes to Scientology, there are law review articles written about their, uh, excessive tactics in court.
When you're a lawyer standing up in court, you can point to that stuff as legitmate legal authorities and commentary on this kind of behavior, so I think it is a little different than most of these other groups.
Yeah, and all the other groups love celebrities, but -- but no group has had Celebrity Centres.
Lawrence: I think that was a stroke of genius on -- on Hubbard's part because he saw that there's one thing that Americans really do worship, and that is celebrity.
Mm.
And that's the reason he set his church here in Los Angeles, and that's the reason the Celebrity Centre is just down the street.
It's all geared, and celebrities are like athletes on Wheaties boxes for the Church.
You know, they -- they're selling a product.
Mm.
Leah: Yeah.
So, Steve, one of our Reddit questions was, "What is the difference, similarities, between Scientology and other cults?" If we look at behaviors and get away from the crazy beliefs, the parallels are all in the behaviors.
Yes, they control sleep.
Yes, I don't have vacation.
Yes, I have to ask permission for every major life decision.
Yes, I-I can't talk to ex-members or critics.
Mm-hmm.
You know, yes, I-I-I-I need to snitch.
That was another theme that was universal.
All right, so, Steve, we have been asked -- Mike and I and -- and the show -- what -- what we can do to get people who are in out.
And we said, basically, nothing.
They have to have their moment when they wake up.
I'm sure there were many people who thought, "Mike Rinder will never wake up.
" Mm-hmm.
"Leah will never wake up.
" That's not my life work or my experience.
Leah: So, how -- how -- how do you recommend -- I don't believe that someone has to be an alcoholic and hit rock bottom in order to get help.
When I was in the Moonies, I couldn't think anything bad about Moon, th-the Divine Principle, or the Unification Church, but I could think bad things about Scientology Sure.
and how it's a mind-control cult [ Laughs .]
or the Hari Krishnas or the Children of God Yeah.
or any number of other cults.
Yeah.
If someone approached me when I was in the Moonies, as fanatical as I was, and I was trained to die or kill on command.
Like, take a submachine gun, Steve, and shoot everyone in this room, because I was trained never to allow a doubt, I would have pulled the trigger Right.
in my state of mind.
If -- If people had approached me and asked me, "What do you think of Scientology?" I'd be like, "That's a horrible cult.
It's obviously brainwashing.
" Yeah, but your shit sounds crazier than our shit.
[ Laughter .]
But the -- But the -- But the next step -- The next step after you're engaging with someone in an intellectual discussion about brainwashing is, "I'm just curious -- in your group, are you allowed to talk to former members?" Yeah.
The general strategy is, don't give up, focus on what's within your control, engage other people from other groups, and evolve a strategy to -- to incrementally get them the information they need in order to get help.
I think the main duty, the main thing we can accomplish is drying up the pool of future recruits.
But if we do spread the word, there's a -- there's a lot of pain out there that -- And a lot of the former Scientologists aren't like you.
They're living in the shadows Most are.
in shame and guilt and -- and -- and -- and that pain, until we started airing, uh, all this information, had nowhere to go.
Leah: Yeah.
Good point.
Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.
It was our pleasure.
Thank you.
And thank you for all that you've done.
Really.
We couldn't do it without you.
Mike: Yeah, all three of you.
Exactly.
You cleared the way.
You took the first punches.
[ Chuckles .]
So, thank you.
Okay, so, here's some more Reddit questions.
You ready? Ready.
[ Chuckles .]
Okay.
"Why can some people leave Scientology and some people have to escape?" Well, the people that have to escape are the people that are in the Sea Org.
There's a confusion between the 24-hour-a-day, 7-day-a-week, 365-day-a-year Church employees called Sea Organization members Mm-hmm.
and the Scientologists who pay money.
And the Scientologists who pay money are serviced by The Sea Org members.
the Sea Org members that provide the training, the auditing.
And the Sea Organization members typically live in facilities provided by the Church, controlled by the Church, with security guards around the outside.
They don't go home to a house.
Right.
"Do you need money to join? Can I be a regular guy or homeless, for that matter? Can I join with no contribution?" Now, remember, the Church responds with "Absolutely!" "We have free services.
" "We have free services and charity.
" And I've never seen any of them.
Okay, but there are little things, Mike.
You can go in for a seminar.
Correct.
You can do free things on the Internet now.
However, if you wish to make any progress up the bridge to spiritual freedom Mm-hmm.
you've got to have money.
Or your life Yeah.
Oh, you can join the Sea Org and get it for free.
meaning you can join the Sea Organization or join staff and get it for free.
Unless you leave.
Then you're -- Unless you leave, and then you didn't get it for free.
Yeah, 'cause you're billed for it.
Correct.
All right.
"Hey, Leah, if you could get a one-on-one with David Miscavige right now, what would you say to him?" Huh.
What would I say to David Miscavige? The reality of it is, I-I would love to sit in a room and talk to him.
I would love to say, "Stop doing what you're doing.
Stop hurting people.
You know what we're saying is true.
You need to stop this.
You have the power to turn things around.
You have the power to abolish these policies.
With all the damage that you've done, take this opportunity to do something right.
" I mean, honestly, that's what I would hope I would say.
I think that's probably what you would say.
Yeah.
And it would all go by like that.
You're right, I mean, 'cause still, I would be thinking there's some -- some shred of decency in him.
Yeah, there's not much -- But I would be wrong.
The shred is little.
Right.
Mike and I want to thank you for once again tuning in, for supporting this -- this series.
I'm still kind of reeling from the information that I've received and -- and -- and information that you don't know about that we're receiving behind the scenes.
It continues to break my heart, but it continues to prove to -- to me that there are decent people in the world that have nothing to do with Scientology.
[ Voice breaking .]
And I -- I just I -- Thank you.
I-It's so weird to be so emotional today, but it's been a tough ride.
And I-I really didn't expect for people to support us the way that they did and the people -- and people that they know nothing about.
I'm, like, not crying from being upset.
I'm crying because I'm so touched by it all.
But I haven't been able to really say that in the show because, you know, I didn't know people were gonna receive it when we were filming it.
I certainly only wanted them to do eight episodes, uh, because this has been the least amount of fun I've ever had in my life, um, but the most rewarding.
I just don't know that we're done.
Well, I-I know for sure, Leah, I'm not done.
Regardless of this program, I can't just abandon all of these people who now feel that they have a hope Yeah.
that something actually is going to change and something is gonna be done about that and there's something that they can do about it, even if that is only providing support.
It's overwhelming, the love that has poured in Yeah.
in doing the show.
It -- It is not what I expected.
And it has only served to make me more determined to keep going and to keep finding a way to put an end to the pain that people are suffering.
Yeah.
Thank youfor being my partner through this.
And thank you.
And, uh, you'll probablysee us soon 'cause God knows I can't let anything go.
But now I have to pee.
Bye.