The Problem with Jon Stewart (2021) s02e01 Episode Script
The War Over Gender
[audience cheering, applauding]
Boom!
Oh. Should I sit up?
Sit up tall.
Hello!
I'm gonna sit on my jacket.
Thank you.
Please! Sit, sit, sit!
Welcome back!
It is season two of The Problem.
This is the new variant of the show.
The King Charles edition.
I'm wearing a blazer.
[high-pitched] Hello.
[normal] Since we've been gone,
and obviously not to suggest
that correlation equals causation,
but the world has gone into
a bit of a tailspin.
War on reality, war on science,
war on children.
Reality no longer has meaning.
The goal here is insidious.
It's about destruction.
The nuclear family is under attack.
You're destroying the culture.
[hushed voice] I'm scared.
[normal]
What the fuck are they talking about?
What are-- Polio? Nuclear war?
Black mermaids?
A recent software update for Apple iPhones
includes a pregnant man emoji,
as well as a number of other
gender-neutral cartoons.
My God, what has Satan wrought?
Ah, yes, the gender wars.
We lost a lot of good men
but, apparently, gained a lot of good men,
so I think it's a wash.
[audience laughs]
We are a country living under the tyranny
of the new pronoun police.
You got your "she/hers,"
your "he/hims,"
your "they/thems."
Am I missing anybody?
Well, I'm Ted Cruz,
and my pronoun is "kiss my ass."
Oh, so you got your "anal/inguses."
Your "he/rim."
[audience laughing]
We are in a new dawn
of gender and sex complexity,
where those who don't fit into a simple
binary are meant to be seen with humanity.
It wasn't always like this, people.
As recently as, let's say,
the 1990s, early 2000s,
people were making shitty, reductive jokes
about the subject.
[chuckles]
-[audience laughing]
What can I say? The joke rhymed.
Shitty and reductive jokes
are kind of my brand.
But as we know from history,
any moment of progressive visibility
will be met with a vicious backlash.
There are two genders.
There are two genders,
and everyone knows it.
Ain't but two genders!
[audience laughing]
That last guy sounded like
it's an emergency
and we're running out of genders.
[shouting] Everyone!
There ain't but two genders!
I don't wanna have to start
rationing genders.
The point is clear.
The human race is defined
by a simple binary,
a black-and-white understanding.
There are men and there are women.
And never the twain shall meet.
Trump is an alpha male.
Well, okay. Yes.
There are obviously men
who are more man than other men.
But that's an aberration.
Beta, gamma
Okay. There's an entire Greek alphabet,
a continuum of masculinity,
but that doesn't mean--
Cuck.
-Pajama boy.
Soy boy.
-Girlie man.
[audience laughing]
I hope the children are out of the room.
Clearly, masculinity appears to be
on a dimmer, not an on-off switch.
But ladies are different.
I was a big tomboy.
These purple-haired, angry freaks.
Rabid feminist.
-Cat lady.
High-rolling bimbos.
-Pretty girlie girl.
My God.
What a cruise line buffet of the gradients
in American gender expression.
Turns out there's a lot of nonbinary shit
happening between the binaries.
But that hasn't stopped
the traditionalists
from deploying their newest weapon
in the culture war arsenal,
the obvious gotcha question.
Real basic question. What is a woman?
Can you provide a definition
for the word "woman"?
For all of recorded history,
people have known what a woman is.
Yes! All of recorded history!
It was simple!
Until like a year ago,
the answer to "what is a woman"
has always been the same.
It's, uh,
"A woman is a deformity that occurred
in the ordinary course of nature."
[audience laughing]
I'm sorry. That's-- That's Aristotle.
I apologize. That's--
I'm sorry. That's not what I meant.
I meant, "A woman is a person
who has no legal existence once married."
That's-- I'm sorry. That's--
That's early American coverture law.
That's-- That's not right.
No. The-- [stammers]
Throughout history.
It's not a gotcha question.
"A woman is 30 shekels."
That's-- I'm sorry.
[audience laughing]
I'm sorry, that's Leviticus.
Uh, unless she's whorish,
then a woman is a loaf of bread.
That's Proverbs. Yes.
It turns out,
for most of recorded history,
women were just defined by
whatever men had in their wallet that day.
Perhaps it takes a woman
to answer this obvious question
that progressives continue
to dance around.
I'm gonna tell you right now
what is a woman.
This is an easy answer.
We are a creation of God.
We came from Adam's rib.
All right. Well, I--
I think I still have some questions.
Uh, perhaps we're getting caught
in a bit of a trap,
in the confusion
of gender identity and sex,
when it comes to defining women.
Perhaps if we focus on the science,
the black-and-white nature
becomes clearer.
That's simple.
A woman is a human being
with two X chromosomes.
Ask any geneticist.
Damn it, he got me again!
[laughing] I don't know any geneticists.
Where am I gonna find a geneticist?
I can't find it. It's--
There's no such thing. It's--
-Geneticist here.
Are you a geneticist?
I am.
-And you're prelit?
[audience laughs]
What-- What are the chances?
So, most women have two X chromosomes.
Most men have an X and a Y.
But you can have one X, three Xs, XXY, XYY
and other combinations too.
And all of what we're talking about
-Yeah.
is related to but distinct from
the idea of gender,
which reflects, you know,
one's lived experiences,
their identity,
even sociocultural factors.
I don't wanna interrupt you,
but I am so close to taking
your lunch money right now.
[audience laughing]
[Bigdeli] I have a fun fact for you, Jon.
Uh, among men of a certain age,
about a third of them,
uh, we can actually detect
that some of their cells,
some circulating white blood cells
have actually lost their Y chromosome.
You're directing that at me, aren't you?
You're directing that--
All right, so, fine,
the geneticist thinks
that sex is not a straight binary.
But is there anybody else
really qualified to speak on this?
My wife's a doctor. My wife is a doctor.
My wife, who is a doctor--
Fortunately, I know a doctor,
who is my wife.
Yes, you there.
Boy in the high chair.
Okay, this is undisputed.
There are two sexes.
There are not nine. There are not 11.
And hopefully the next thing he says
doesn't completely undercut
his entire point.
If you have a Y chromosome,
then you are typically male.
People without a Y chromosome
are typically female.
Right! Typically!
That's the whole fucking point!
When things are undisputed and binary,
there are no "typicallies."
One plus one equals two, typically.
The Earth revolves around the sun
in most cases.
There exists an area in sex and gender
that, by your own admission, isn't binary.
Even you, Dr. Quinn, Medicine Husband,
have trouble explaining it.
In nearly all cases,
I can tell the difference
between a male and a female
99.8%, 99.9% of cases, you absolutely
can gender somebody based on
By the way, in most cases of intersex,
those people still manifest
as either a male or a female
Here's the deal. For all of human history,
there was an objective standard
between male and female
For nearly all of human history,
out of partial ignorance,
and partially because
this is usually true,
it was out of genetic-- it was out of
simply looking at people's genitals.
Yes, so simple.
Nearly all, in most cases, usually,
I before E except after C,
show me your dick so I know where you pee.
[audience laughing, applauding]
And thus
"The Problem with Gender and Sex."
Or both.
It turns out none of this shit is simple.
We didn't just ask a geneticist.
We asked endocrinologists
and a few psychiatrists and gynecologists.
And they all said the same thing.
Intersex, trans, nonbinary
and all the other gradations
on the gender-future-sex-love-sounds
continuum
are normal human variation.
And whatever discomfort we may feel
in the changing norms of reality,
myself included,
it is no match for the discomfort and fear
felt by those seeking acceptance.
Yet, for some reason,
anti-trans legislation increased
over 800% since 2018.
800%.
What could justify
this unprecedented urgency?
Did trans people storm the Capitol?
Did they steal classified nuclear intel
from the White House
and keep it in a humidor in Florida?
What is the threat?
We need to end the assault
on women's sports
by the radical gender-left.
Come on.
Not every one of those words
could be equally important.
[audience laughs]
And the same note.
It's the end of women's sports.
It's just the end.
Women's sports as we know it will die.
[audience laughs]
And I assume that when they die,
for tax reasons,
you will bury them on your golf course.
[audience laughing, applauding]
Now, there have been 77
anti-trans sports bills
introduced this year alone.
There have been more anti-trans
sports bills introduced this year
than trans people dominating sports
in the history of women's sports.
And by the by, I don't know
if you're familiar with the Olympics,
but they've been trying to answer
this incredibly simple question
of "what is a woman" for 80 years.
And here's how some of that went.
In 1966,
a Polish sprinter was deemed a woman
via a controversial anatomy test.
I think you know what that means.
In 1967, a chromosome test done on
this athlete deemed her not to be a woman.
And, of course, in 1968, she had a baby.
A baby!
And then obviously in 1969,
she had the summer of her life.
[audience laughs]
[lip-synching "Summer of '69"]
It all boils down to this.
Clearly, just because you strongly believe
that something is simple and undeniable
doesn't mean that that belief
will be backed up
by the correlating and corresponding data.
God, that's not pithy enough--
What-- If only there was a way
to monetize that thought
in the most cynical way possible.
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Nailed it!
Take a look at this.
[audience applauding, cheering]
Let's all pray.
Dear God
I know you
-make no mistakes
but these
-transgender people--
What is that about? Sincere question.
And no disrespect to anybody
but I've got a message for you
that I must preach.
This country was founded on the idea
a boy has a penis, a girl has a vagina.
In the name of Jesus.
-Oh, thank you, Jesus.
I mean, I don't have a problem with
-gay people.
I have gay friends.
I don't know anybody
that doesn't have a gay friend.
But these
-transgender, intersex, nonbinary
perverts--
-No offense.
They're killing
-girls' and women's sports.
[crowd boos]
We need to save
-women's swim team
archery
-women's volleyball, women's tennis.
Even though
-women's sports
not as cool as
-the men's sports.
Angelic reinforcement,
angelic reinforcement.
[speaking in tongues]
We don't have a problem
with transgender people.
But, Lord, we ask you
-please
give us the power
-to check
the exact size and shape
of their genitals.
Just a little peek.
In Jesus's name, we pray.
-Hallelujah!
Amen.
-[all] Amen.
[audience laughing, applauding]
I've known I was trans
from, um, my earliest memories.
Gender dysphoria is a disconnect
from your mind and body.
So, what I could be feeling up here
isn't the same thing
I see myself in the mirror as.
But gender-affirming care,
it helps us see what we feel.
It took me, I wanna say,
almost eight months
of sending in authorizations,
getting medical necessity documents,
for example,
going to counseling, going to therapy,
having all of the documentation lined up,
um, before they actually approved it.
So, at that point, I was just so relieved.
It finally made me feel, like,
home in my body.
We're talking about
allowing people the ability
to live in their own authenticity.
Legislators are trying to ban doctors
from providing gender-affirming care.
Our state representatives claim
to be pro-life,
but they want to play
with children's lives.
This is health care,
and it shouldn't be a game.
[audience applauding]
All right. So, gender-affirming care.
There's [stammers]
obviously very strong feelings about it.
But what is the deal of it?
We've assembled a panel that can tell us
what it is, what it's not,
why people are trying
to block access to it
and why they're trying to get access.
Keisha Michaels is with us.
She is the mother
of a transgender teenager from Maryland.
Debi Jackson, mother
of a transgender teenager from Missouri.
Chase Strangio, a lawyer with the ACLU
who's argued in front of
the Supreme Court.
And Dr. Joshua Safer,
endocrinologist at Mount Sinai
and an author
of the Endocrine Society's guidelines
for gender-affirming care.
Welcome, everybody.
Thank you for joining us. All right.
-[audience applauding]
[stammers] I want to go right at it and--
and give you a sense of, you know,
it's a real, uh, hot-button issue
in this country right now,
a culture war issue.
The critics are saying
that gender-affirming care
is nothing more than, uh,
woke doctors and woke parents
and activists, uh,
manipulating confused children
into mutilations
and life-altering, uh,
experimental drug therapies.
Now, you both have children.
What's your experience been with this?
Well, it's interesting
that folks might say
that these are woke parents
'cause my husband and I weren't
really woke about this.
[laughs] We had a child
who was telling us that they--
that, you know,
she's been a girl her whole life,
and we were not really listening.
I'm not sure how woke we were.
-Mm-hmm. Right.
I kind of wish we were more woke.
I wish we had been able
to hear her sooner.
Um, took us a few years to really listen
and appreciate
that she was telling us who she was.
Um, and when we did, she-- it was--
she was like a new child.
She just literally lit up, woke up.
She woke up when we supported her.
We said,
"We recognize that this is who you are,
and we're gonna support you in our house.
And we're gonna support you in your life."
Wow.
-And when that happened, she's like,
"This is amazing."
She really didn't have words for it
as a ten-year-old.
She'd been telling us since she was three.
And since that time,
what we deal with now is a child
who is now almost going to college.
[Stewart] Right.
-She's in high school.
And I told someone the other day, I said,
"You know, her being trans
is the least interesting thing about her."
Right. Was this your experience as well?
Was it--
Was it something that shocked you?
Was it something that was difficult
for you to accept?
Uh, yes. It was completely
out of my realm of understanding.
I was very conservative, evangelical,
you know, Southern Baptist, GOP.
But at the age of four, Avery said,
"Mom, you think that I'm a boy,
but I'm a girl.
I'm a girl on the inside,"
and very directly told us. Um--
[clicks tongue]
We had no idea what that meant.
Uh, again, this--
it was out of our thinking.
We thought maybe we have a gay boy
who's confused.
We thought the same thing.
We went to ask questions.
-[chuckles]
We talked to doctors. We--
We went to endocrinologists
just to check the XX, XYs, all the things.
Um, and we had to come to understand
that our child knew who they were.
And, mind you, they're 15 now.
This was more than a decade ago.
[Stewart] Right.
-They weren't influenced by TikTok.
They weren't on Facebook.
-[Michaels laughs]
Um, at four--
-So you're saying this is YouTube.
Yeah, clearly. Clearly.
-[audience laughing]
Maybe-- Maybe a Myspace page
-[all laughing]
Sure.
-they stumbled across.
You're saying that Friendster
-Yeah. Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
Now, okay,
so you live in a conservative community.
Now, generally that is where the energy
for the push against gender-affirming care
is coming from.
The people in your life,
knowing what you went through,
knowing what your child went through,
did that dent their belief system
in any way?
I wish I could say it did.
Um, we were the most conservative
out of all the families
in our, uh, friend group
with kids at preschool and everything.
But when we said,
"This is who our child is,"
um, we lost our-- all of our friends.
We really had to rebuild
from the ground up
because we lost our entire support system.
So, Chase, you know,
you're fighting in the legal arena here,
and-- and you're working for the ACLU,
and you're seeing--
These families, they're all trying to
come to terms with how to deal with this,
and it's a huge struggle.
Well, I wanna say--
Yeah, so first of all [stammers]
these parents, their experiences,
that's what we hear across the country
-[Stewart] Mm-hmm.
across communities and around the world,
that kids know who they are,
that what improves their health,
what makes them thrive
is love and support.
When we hear about experimental surgery,
that is not happening on children, period.
Children means pre-pubertal children.
There are no medical interventions,
period.
That is a distortion designed
to make people support legislation
targeting our communities.
What we do know harms children,
for example,
is removing them from loving homes.
That is what Governor Abbott
is suggesting be done in Texas.
And this is all--
This has been really a rapid rise.
This has gone to,
"These are mutilations of children,
and we're going to step in as the state"
[Michaels] Mm-hmm.
"and take children out of homes
if they are going to abide by
gender-affirming care."
Now, why are people doing this?
I think
that there's two fundamental reasons why.
One, we're approaching midterms.
We're approaching
a 2024 presidential election.
That cynical. It's that cynical.
It is that cynical.
-Wow.
Go to the early 2000s.
When did we start seeing attacks
on same-sex couples and marriage escalate?
Election years, mobilizing a voting base.
And then there's another reason,
which is an investment in a far-right,
Christian ideology.
That is also fueling people.
But again, in theory we have a separation
of church and state.
In theory we should be--
-[Stewart] In this country?
Well, we used to. Yeah, yeah.
-[audience laughing]
I wasn't sure now.
-You may have had--
"Are you from, uh" Okay.
-Yeah.
It was back in the Friendster days.
Oh, I understand. Okay.
-Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
But let me ask you,
as-- as the doctor, then,
what is the harm of waiting
until they're "the age of majority"?
What are the downsides of
not giving gender-affirming care because--
or any of those drug therapies?
What would be the harm in waiting?
The statistic is something like
40% of kids who are--
who do not come into
an affirming situation--
Which just means being respectful to them.
It doesn't mean any treatment
in particular.
40% are contemplating suicide.
And, um, and-- and self-harm rates--
So these-- the guidelines that you wrote,
because you were-- you were responsible,
with, uh, the endocrine board,
for writing guidelines of care
for endocrinologists.
The Endocrine Society, yes. Yes.
-[Stewart] The Endocrine Society.
And-- And that was based on, uh,
research papers, data,
the things that you saw intervening
with gender-affirming care,
which may be just being respectful,
or, as they get older,
some of these other things.
You've seen that have, uh,
a reduction in depression,
a reduction in suicide.
That's what you've studied.
Absolutely. And-- And to be really clear,
you used the word "woke."
Um, the medical establishment is--
is not woke.
[all laughing]
-At all.
At all. [laughs]
I'm sorry, my doctor
in Greenwich Village would beg to differ.
[audience, panelists laughing]
Uh, that's understood.
And so then what the-- it shifts to is,
this is a profit center for you.
That this is a cynical exploitation
by Big Pharma
to make money off of confused children.
[Safer] That too is crazy
because the areas of medicine that are
brought in for gender-affirming care
are heavily mental health, pediatrics,
primary care, endocrinology.
If you look up where the--
where the money centers are in medicine,
those are not they.
I had five colonoscopies last week.
[audience, panelists laughing]
Not part of gender-affirming care.
-[Jackson chuckles]
First, I'd like to just make sure
we clarify the different types
of transitions
because we've talked about--
there's no medical intervention.
So, Avery socially transitioned
at the age of four.
So it was just name, pronouns, hair,
saying daughter instead of son.
Um, before we did
that kind of affirmation,
Avery was depressed,
talked about death all the time,
and actually tried
to jump out of our car--
At four?
-At four. Just could not handle it.
Doing that kind of social affirmation
gave us a kid who smiled again,
who said, "Mommy, I love you,"
all the time.
We have a whole year
between three and four
where we don't have a photo
of Avery smiling.
And that changed
just through social affirmation.
So when people call us child abusers
and say it's horrible to do this, it's--
They don't understand the realities.
Is that the razor's edge
you feel like you're living in, Keisha?
That you feel like
it's such a fragile situation that,
"I have to do everything I can
to save this child's life"?
That's how I felt before she transitioned.
[Stewart] Right.
So, the year before she transitioned,
I knew--
She was also verbalizing
that she did not want to live.
She, uh-- [stammers] And I-- I said,
"I don't want to lose my child."
So we may have had our head in the sands
about what was really going on
Mm-hmm.
-uh, acknowledging this.
So, yes, there was a razor's edge
for sure at that point.
Once we actually affirmed this child
she's actually been fine.
[laughs] She's on her phone too much.
That's her biggest problem.
-[audience laughing]
And so, she needed--
-My child only reads novels.
[audience laughing]
-Exactly, right?
I-- Well, I-- Not true in our house.
But I will say that, uh, once she tran--
Honestly, once she had the
"gender-affirming care" of her parents.
Let's say that.
-[Stewart] Right.
Gender-affirming care starts at home.
And so once she had
her parents' gender-affirming care,
everything else just kind of
fell into place for her.
For most kids who are trans,
having to go through a puberty
that doesn't match their identity
is quite traumatic.
So anytime that we can prevent that
from happening for them,
I think it is particularly helpful.
Now, not every person who is trans
wants something done to their body,
so I do wanna make sure
that we make that point.
But for a lot of folks--
And the gender-affirming care
is supposed to figure out what's right
for each individual child.
-For that-- Exactly.
Chase, the legal battle now is
to not give parents that choice.
To basically say, "We understand.
You can call your child
whatever name you want, whatever pronoun,
but we will not put them--
We will not allow them
to go through this gender-affirming care."
It's-- I think the words they use are
"permanent," "irreversible,"
"does untold damage"
Yeah. The politicians--
The parental rights politicians of,
"My kid doesn't have to wear a mask,
I don't have to vaccinate my kid,
my kid doesn't have to learn
critical race theory in school,"
are passing laws that say we are going to
take away the ability of parents
to give their children lifesaving care.
And they're making arguments like,
"It's a fad."
That they're being subjected
to social transition.
Well, you know what?
I grew up as a young trans person
in a totally different time.
You know the one trans-masculine person
that I knew about? Brandon Teena.
You know what happened to him?
He was murdered.
I had nothing else. That was the reality.
And now, there are more people,
thankfully, who can live
because they have loving parents
who are able to go to affirming doctors.
[Stewart] Right.
-But the state is coming in,
many states,
passing laws trying to ban this care.
Um, starting with Arkansas,
the first state to do it in 2021.
Now we have additional states,
and we're fighting across the country
to try to make sure that parents
can get the medically supported care
and make decisions in conjunction with
their doctors to save their kids' lives.
Well, then, uh,
I think the only thing to do at this point
is to go talk to
the Attorney General of Arkansas.
[Strangio] Mmm.
Uh, and, uh, we will do that.
Uh, I want to thank you all very much
for being here.
Keisha, Debi, uh, Chase, and Dr. Safer.
Thank you so much for being here.
[audience applauding]
-Uh, take a look at this.
[audience laughing]
Two genders?
What, do you think I, God Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth and calzones,
made only two kinds of humans, yes?
You basic, bipedal fucks.
I deserve way more credit than that.
Have you seen the complexity of my work?
Look, let me-- let me find something here.
[stammering] Look at this.
Platypus. Look at this guy.
He's got tits, fur, a bill, lays eggs.
And those tits, they're not ornamental.
They work.
Do you get it? I like trying shit.
It's fun for me. It's what I do.
But lo, I say unto thee,
I'm not a fan of critics.
I created humans, and I love you all,
but like I said to the dinosaurs,
"Fuck around and find out."
-[audience laughing]
Before I go, l-let me show you some of
my latest stuff here. Look at this.
AnaHonda.
-[car alarm beeps]
Half snake, half Honda.
What's this right here?
Hotter, an otter that is incredibly hot.
And so cute with her glaze, with her clam.
Cheese river. River flowing with cheese.
Eh, I'm just kidding.
You wish, motherfuckers.
All right. Aliens are real. I'm out.
[audience cheering, applauding]
Hey.
So,
as I mentioned to our distinguished panel,
we went to Arkansas.
And we didn't just talk to, like,
somebody off the street.
We talked to
the Attorney General of Arkansas.
[audience member groans]
[Stewart whines]
-[audience laughing]
[Stewart] Is it Attorney Generals
or Attorneys General?
Attorneys General.
-Attorneys General.
It's a very odd plural.
Attorney General Rutledge.
That's right.
-Thank you for joining us.
Tell us about the SAFE Act.
What is the SAFE Act?
We passed law in Arkansas
a couple of years ago called the SAFE Act,
which stands for
Save Adolescents From Experimentation.
And essentially what it does, Jon,
is to prevent, uh, young people
from being, uh-- go through
these experimental procedures
to transition their gender
from male to female
and from female to male.
What do you mean by experimentation?
Well, all of these, uh, drugs
we're talking about
have not been approved,
and these are experimental procedures
to transition, uh, these young people,
these adolescents essentially,
from male to female
-Mm-hmm.
or from female to male.
And what we passed in Arkansas
was to simply say that you can't do that,
that we are going
to protect these children.
So this is--
-Doesn't prevent them as an 18-year-old--
I think that's what's important
-Right.
for Arkansans
and Americans to understand.
This does not prevent someone
at age 18 from making that decision.
How many Arkansans in the last five years
before the law was passed
had that surgery, uh,
to transition from male to female
or female to male as a minor?
Well, that answer I don't know, uh, Jon.
Uh, in our research, it was zero.
So it's-- it definitely hasn't happened.
So you're saying this is--
It's purely a preventative measure.
It's not stopping something
that's currently happening.
This is predominantly to also
protect them from those drugs,
uh, that are being used
to change their hormones.
That it's not only--
-Right.
You know,
when people think of transitioning
they think of having actual surgery.
Right.
-Whether that's--
But it's not simply the surgery.
It's hormone suppressants
and puberty blockers
that we're talking about.
So, let me give you the--
the flip side of it.
I think a lot of people might say,
including myself, uh,
it's surprising that the state would say,
"We wanna make a decision for your family
and your child to protect them,"
even though
the American Medical Association,
the American Association of Pediatrics,
the Endocrine Society,
the American Association of Psychiatrists,
all recommend a certain set of guidelines
for children
that are expressing gender dysphoria.
So I guess my surprise is,
why would the state of Arkansas
step in to override
parents, physicians,
psychiatrists, endocrinologists,
who have developed guidelines?
Why would you override those guidelines?
Well, I think it's important
that all of those physicians,
all of those experts--
For every single one of them,
there's an expert that says,
"We don't need to allow children
to be able to take those medications."
That there are many instances where--
-Right.
But you know that's not true.
You know it's not,
"For every one, there's one."
There's,
"These are the established medical"--
Well, I don't know that that's not true.
I don't know that you know that.
Why would you pass a law, then,
if you don't--
if you don't know that that's true?
Well, I know that there are doctors
and that we had plenty of people come
and testify before our legislature
-Mm-hmm.
who said that, uh, you know,
we have 98% of the young people
who have gender dysphoria are--
Right.
that they are able to move past that.
And once they have the--
the help that they need,
no longer suffer from
gender dysphoria. 98%.
Wow.
-Without, uh, that medical treatment--
That's an--
That's an incredibly made-up figure.
[audience laughing]
-That's--
That doesn't comport with any of
the studies or documentation that exists
from these medical organizations.
What-- What medical association
are you talking about of these doctors?
Well, we have all of that in our,
uh, legislative history,
and we'll be glad to provide that to you.
Uh, I don't have the name of that
off the top of my head. I know--
You don't have the name of
the organization? That--
Off the top of my head.
Oh, okay.
-But, yes.
We have all of that cited
in all of our briefs.
You're suggesting that protecting children
means overriding the recommendations
of the American Medical Association,
the American Association of Pediatrics,
the Endocrine Society?
We don't have enough data.
We don't have enough to show
that these drugs are effective
and that these children are better off
and that we should encourage--
You don't have enough,
or it's not enough for you?
Let-- Let me try and flip it
a different way
and see if maybe this-- this can help.
In Arkansas,
if you have pediatric cancer--
And obviously
we all wanna protect children.
I think we established that earlier.
Whose guidelines do you follow
for pediatric cancer?
Well, I think, if my child, who is four--
If I was faced with that terrible,
uh, decision,
then I would be speaking to my doctor.
And if my doctor recommended
something that I disagreed with,
then I would get a second opinion.
And that's why I believe
that these parents need to make sure
that they're encouraged
to get numerous opinions
when they're talking about
an irreversible step.
You're not letting them.
The state's not saying,
"Get another opinion."
What they're saying is, "You can't."
What you're actually saying
is the opposite.
That's actually not at all
what the state said.
The state simply said that
you cannot perform these procedures.
And so, parents should get
another opinion. That they--
And children should want
to have another opinion.
But that's not--
-Because, again, these are nine, ten--
So, if your child is suffering
from pediatric cancer
and the state comes in and says to you,
"They recommend chemotherapy,
but we're not going to let you do that.
You can't.
We think you should
get a different opinion,
and here's the organization we think
you should get the opinion from.
They're not the mainstream,
but they're an organization.
So, that's how you--
That's who you have to be treated by."
Does that sound like
something you would accept?
I think that's a very extreme example
that's not at all in line with
what we're talking about.
We're not saying that at some point--
Because when you have cancer,
it literally is--
And particularly pediatric cancer,
and having friends
that have lost children
Sure.
-to pediatric cancer--
Having a four-year-old, I'm sure--
-I've got some bad news for you.
Parents with children
who have gender dysphoria
have lost children
to suicide and depression
They absolutely have.
-because it's acute.
And so, these mainstream medical
organizations have developed guidelines
through peer-reviewed data and studies.
And through those guidelines,
they've improved mental health outcomes.
So, I'm confused why you follow
AMA guidelines and AAAP guidelines
for all other health issues in Arkansas,
because we checked,
but not for this.
It's simply saying,
"Let those young people who are facing
gender confusion and dysphoria--
Allow them to become adults
and to make that decision.
Allow a child to be a child."
So, here's where we have our--
our crossroads.
You've made the determination
that protecting these children
means not giving them access
to the guidelines in care
that have been designed by medical
and mental health professionals
for children expressing gender dysphoria.
And I'm asking you again,
what are your qualifications
to step in and say,
"No. Keeping you from that care
is protecting you."
You've made that determination.
Well, these are irreversible decisions
that these children at these young ages
are making or that their parents--
They're not making the decision.
You're making it sound like
a nine-year-old walks into
a doctor's office and says,
"Give me some testosterone."
And the doctor goes, "Oh, thank God.
Because we're wanting to create an army
of transgenders because we're crazy."
And, they go right in like--
-No.
We passed a law to protect
the children in Arkansas,
and I think that's what is important.
Again, the medical community disagrees
with you that that's protecting children.
Well, not all of the medical community.
-Who doesn't?
We have had experts testify
here in Arkansas.
Okay. From what medical organizations?
Well, we have all of those in our briefs.
And I apologize that I wasn't prepared
to have a Supreme Court argument today
in front of you.
But, uh, we are going to have
arguments on this case
Right.
-uh, when the time comes.
Let me ask you this. Do you think gender
and sex are complicated?
I think it's obvious
that it is complicated.
And for these young people--
-So why make a black-and-white decision?
And for those that are
faced with this confusion,
I think we need to give them
the help they need.
Who do you want to give
the mental health care?
Because you've already said
that the guidelines from the American
Psychiatric Association are not correct.
To them, a successful, uh,
conclusion of this
is a child who determines,
with their family and their caregivers
and their mental health, uh, experts
and their physician,
what the best course of treatment is.
It may be that they get into it
and decide,
"This is not for me.
I'm not actually transgender."
But you're stepping in and saying,
"That's not the help they need."
Well, I think it is important for them to
[stammers] speak to
and have that mental health treatment.
Just because, again, that we disagree
with whether or not they can have
gender-transitioning medications
or surgeries
does not mean that they can't have
the opportunity to speak to
licensed therapists and psychiatrists.
But you understand,
when you go to speak to a psychiatrist,
they have guidelines that they follow.
And the guidelines are developed
through peer review studies.
What I'm saying is that our reasoning
behind passing this law in Arkansas
is not to discriminate,
but it's simply to protect and allow
those children to continue to develop.
We're not gonna allow young people,
a 16-year-old, or-- to vote.
We're not gonna let them buy cigarettes.
We're not gonna let them
So you're--
-do all of these things--
You're suggesting that buying cigarettes
is equivalent to gender dysphoria?
No, I'm not suggesting that.
I'm saying that we have laws
that are recognized
that we say that age of majority is
the point in which someone
can make a decision for--
-So--
If a child says, "I'm depressed"--
-Can't even rent a car until you're 25.
Okay. So, why allow children
to get access to ADHD medication,
or depression medication,
or bipolar medication?
Well, it's because
it's changing permanently.
It's not. It's just not.
-It's not changing--
Puberty blockers aren't changing people
permanently. They're-- They're just not.
And the bar to get things
that have
maybe slightly more permanence to it
is higher.
And it takes longer. That's how
the guidelines have been developed.
Arkansas has simply said, "We're going to
allow these children to be children."
And as they are--
And we wanna, again, encourage them
to have access to the mental health care.
Because none of us can imagine,
whether it's my daughter, your daughter,
your son, anybody--
If my daughter or my son came to me
in agony,
and I knew there was a program
that I could get them into
that had positive effects
on their mental health,
I would swim across rivers
and climb mountains
and tunnel through
whatever I needed to get to
to save that child's life.
And my guess is you'd do the same.
-And I think--
And I truly hope you're never
faced with that decision.
Because I imagine
it's agonizing for the parent.
Yes.
-And it's agonizing for the child.
But the fact that you've removed
that option for people
seems antithetical to
the values you profess to espouse.
Well, again,
nothing is going to stop that child,
when he or she turns 18,
from being able to make this decision.
Well, something will stop them:
if they don't turn 18.
I mean, I don't think it's fair to put--
and to say to a child,
"You're going to kill yourself
if you don't take this medicine."
That's essentially what you--
-[scoffs] What?
That's all you talk about is
-Who's saying that?
that the suicide rate is through the roof
for these young people.
The suicide rate isn't through the roof
because doctors want them
to take the medicine.
It's because they live in a state
where who they are is actually
something that is viewed as,
uh, something that needs to be legislated.
That a lot of the pressure
that they feel isn't from who they are
but from society's reaction
to who they are.
And from people like the state of Arkansas
outlawing the treatment
that can help their mental, uh, health
and their physical health.
All I've heard from you
-Mm-hmm.
and from this very vocal minority--
What "vocal minority"
are you talking about?
The opponents of our law in Arkansas
and those who are challenging it.
Not just the plaintiffs--
"Vocal minority" meaning the AMA,
the AAP, the Endocrine Society.
You're saying that "vocal minority"?
But it's a vocal minority of Americans,
and I think that's what's important.
And of Arkansans.
Why don't you consider allowing children
who are experiencing gender dysphoria--
Isn't it experimentation
to not put them through treatment?
Isn't that also experimentation?
Why are you willing to experiment on them
by doing nothing?
I'm not saying let's do nothing.
Well, you're not saying to follow
the guidelines.
So [stammers] what should you do?
-Well, they're "guidelines."
I'm saying get a second opinion. Talk--
Talk to other doctors. Talk to family.
Let this child--
But isn't that experimentation?
How is that not experimentation?
Because this other stuff has been
determined through data and peer review.
But we haven't had enough data
and peer review.
So it's all an experiment, isn't it?
I have to be honest with you.
The care and guidelines
for transgender children
seem a lot more considered and thought-out
than the law preventing them
from getting it,
where you can't even cite the medical
organization that agrees with you.
So, if we're talking about
one decision that seems rash
and one decision that seems conservative,
it's the guidelines for transition
seems conservative,
and the law seems rash.
Well, I believe that the outcry--
And by those who are wanting to use
these young people as political pawns--
And to attack those of us who put
these sort of laws in place
Uh-huh. Right.
-are the ones who are, in fact,
putting these children at risk
and making them--
And putting them on public display
and making it part of
the mainstream media conversation.
This was not part of
the mainstream media conversation, uh,
five years ago, ten years ago.
But now these children
are being put on display
by those who are claiming to protect them,
when, instead, we need to ensure, again,
that they are working through this
with their own families,
their own doctors, their communities--
You're-- You're making that illegal.
[audience laughing]
-All right.
Uh, we do appreciate you sitting down
and talking to us about it.
And, uh, I-- I hope that, uh, the law is--
is shot down.
Because I do think
-[audience laughing, applauding]
that these children are
in a very vulnerable situation.
And I-- I disagree with you
that this protects them.
I actually think the opposite.
Oh.
-But thank you.
Well, thank you for coming to Arkansas.
Making a quick trip.
Thank you, though. Appreciate it.
-Thank you, Jon.
[audience laughing, applauding]
Worst Thanksgiving ever.
[audience laughing]
Yeah, yep.
I assume it felt watching it
like it felt being there.
Little bit of sphincter tightening.
Uh, thank you, all,
for watching this episode.
That's gonna put us all on the same page.
For more resources,
check out these websites.
We also got the podcast there which,
as you know, is a window to the soul.
Uh, and check out our website.
It's, uh, the best zeros and ones
that have been put together on the Net.
Before we go,
we always end the show on a low note.
Here it is, your moment of Cruz.
When Ketanji Brown Jackson
was up for nomination
[crowd boos]
there was a reporter who ran up to me,
all excited, and he said
he was asking every Senate Republican
on the Judiciary Committee
the following question: "What is a woman?"
"What is a woman?"
And he looks at me with this "gotcha."
And I turned to him and said,
"Um, an adult female human?"
[chuckles] You sly dog.
[audience laughing, cheering, applauding]
Boom!
Oh. Should I sit up?
Sit up tall.
Hello!
I'm gonna sit on my jacket.
Thank you.
Please! Sit, sit, sit!
Welcome back!
It is season two of The Problem.
This is the new variant of the show.
The King Charles edition.
I'm wearing a blazer.
[high-pitched] Hello.
[normal] Since we've been gone,
and obviously not to suggest
that correlation equals causation,
but the world has gone into
a bit of a tailspin.
War on reality, war on science,
war on children.
Reality no longer has meaning.
The goal here is insidious.
It's about destruction.
The nuclear family is under attack.
You're destroying the culture.
[hushed voice] I'm scared.
[normal]
What the fuck are they talking about?
What are-- Polio? Nuclear war?
Black mermaids?
A recent software update for Apple iPhones
includes a pregnant man emoji,
as well as a number of other
gender-neutral cartoons.
My God, what has Satan wrought?
Ah, yes, the gender wars.
We lost a lot of good men
but, apparently, gained a lot of good men,
so I think it's a wash.
[audience laughs]
We are a country living under the tyranny
of the new pronoun police.
You got your "she/hers,"
your "he/hims,"
your "they/thems."
Am I missing anybody?
Well, I'm Ted Cruz,
and my pronoun is "kiss my ass."
Oh, so you got your "anal/inguses."
Your "he/rim."
[audience laughing]
We are in a new dawn
of gender and sex complexity,
where those who don't fit into a simple
binary are meant to be seen with humanity.
It wasn't always like this, people.
As recently as, let's say,
the 1990s, early 2000s,
people were making shitty, reductive jokes
about the subject.
[chuckles]
-[audience laughing]
What can I say? The joke rhymed.
Shitty and reductive jokes
are kind of my brand.
But as we know from history,
any moment of progressive visibility
will be met with a vicious backlash.
There are two genders.
There are two genders,
and everyone knows it.
Ain't but two genders!
[audience laughing]
That last guy sounded like
it's an emergency
and we're running out of genders.
[shouting] Everyone!
There ain't but two genders!
I don't wanna have to start
rationing genders.
The point is clear.
The human race is defined
by a simple binary,
a black-and-white understanding.
There are men and there are women.
And never the twain shall meet.
Trump is an alpha male.
Well, okay. Yes.
There are obviously men
who are more man than other men.
But that's an aberration.
Beta, gamma
Okay. There's an entire Greek alphabet,
a continuum of masculinity,
but that doesn't mean--
Cuck.
-Pajama boy.
Soy boy.
-Girlie man.
[audience laughing]
I hope the children are out of the room.
Clearly, masculinity appears to be
on a dimmer, not an on-off switch.
But ladies are different.
I was a big tomboy.
These purple-haired, angry freaks.
Rabid feminist.
-Cat lady.
High-rolling bimbos.
-Pretty girlie girl.
My God.
What a cruise line buffet of the gradients
in American gender expression.
Turns out there's a lot of nonbinary shit
happening between the binaries.
But that hasn't stopped
the traditionalists
from deploying their newest weapon
in the culture war arsenal,
the obvious gotcha question.
Real basic question. What is a woman?
Can you provide a definition
for the word "woman"?
For all of recorded history,
people have known what a woman is.
Yes! All of recorded history!
It was simple!
Until like a year ago,
the answer to "what is a woman"
has always been the same.
It's, uh,
"A woman is a deformity that occurred
in the ordinary course of nature."
[audience laughing]
I'm sorry. That's-- That's Aristotle.
I apologize. That's--
I'm sorry. That's not what I meant.
I meant, "A woman is a person
who has no legal existence once married."
That's-- I'm sorry. That's--
That's early American coverture law.
That's-- That's not right.
No. The-- [stammers]
Throughout history.
It's not a gotcha question.
"A woman is 30 shekels."
That's-- I'm sorry.
[audience laughing]
I'm sorry, that's Leviticus.
Uh, unless she's whorish,
then a woman is a loaf of bread.
That's Proverbs. Yes.
It turns out,
for most of recorded history,
women were just defined by
whatever men had in their wallet that day.
Perhaps it takes a woman
to answer this obvious question
that progressives continue
to dance around.
I'm gonna tell you right now
what is a woman.
This is an easy answer.
We are a creation of God.
We came from Adam's rib.
All right. Well, I--
I think I still have some questions.
Uh, perhaps we're getting caught
in a bit of a trap,
in the confusion
of gender identity and sex,
when it comes to defining women.
Perhaps if we focus on the science,
the black-and-white nature
becomes clearer.
That's simple.
A woman is a human being
with two X chromosomes.
Ask any geneticist.
Damn it, he got me again!
[laughing] I don't know any geneticists.
Where am I gonna find a geneticist?
I can't find it. It's--
There's no such thing. It's--
-Geneticist here.
Are you a geneticist?
I am.
-And you're prelit?
[audience laughs]
What-- What are the chances?
So, most women have two X chromosomes.
Most men have an X and a Y.
But you can have one X, three Xs, XXY, XYY
and other combinations too.
And all of what we're talking about
-Yeah.
is related to but distinct from
the idea of gender,
which reflects, you know,
one's lived experiences,
their identity,
even sociocultural factors.
I don't wanna interrupt you,
but I am so close to taking
your lunch money right now.
[audience laughing]
[Bigdeli] I have a fun fact for you, Jon.
Uh, among men of a certain age,
about a third of them,
uh, we can actually detect
that some of their cells,
some circulating white blood cells
have actually lost their Y chromosome.
You're directing that at me, aren't you?
You're directing that--
All right, so, fine,
the geneticist thinks
that sex is not a straight binary.
But is there anybody else
really qualified to speak on this?
My wife's a doctor. My wife is a doctor.
My wife, who is a doctor--
Fortunately, I know a doctor,
who is my wife.
Yes, you there.
Boy in the high chair.
Okay, this is undisputed.
There are two sexes.
There are not nine. There are not 11.
And hopefully the next thing he says
doesn't completely undercut
his entire point.
If you have a Y chromosome,
then you are typically male.
People without a Y chromosome
are typically female.
Right! Typically!
That's the whole fucking point!
When things are undisputed and binary,
there are no "typicallies."
One plus one equals two, typically.
The Earth revolves around the sun
in most cases.
There exists an area in sex and gender
that, by your own admission, isn't binary.
Even you, Dr. Quinn, Medicine Husband,
have trouble explaining it.
In nearly all cases,
I can tell the difference
between a male and a female
99.8%, 99.9% of cases, you absolutely
can gender somebody based on
By the way, in most cases of intersex,
those people still manifest
as either a male or a female
Here's the deal. For all of human history,
there was an objective standard
between male and female
For nearly all of human history,
out of partial ignorance,
and partially because
this is usually true,
it was out of genetic-- it was out of
simply looking at people's genitals.
Yes, so simple.
Nearly all, in most cases, usually,
I before E except after C,
show me your dick so I know where you pee.
[audience laughing, applauding]
And thus
"The Problem with Gender and Sex."
Or both.
It turns out none of this shit is simple.
We didn't just ask a geneticist.
We asked endocrinologists
and a few psychiatrists and gynecologists.
And they all said the same thing.
Intersex, trans, nonbinary
and all the other gradations
on the gender-future-sex-love-sounds
continuum
are normal human variation.
And whatever discomfort we may feel
in the changing norms of reality,
myself included,
it is no match for the discomfort and fear
felt by those seeking acceptance.
Yet, for some reason,
anti-trans legislation increased
over 800% since 2018.
800%.
What could justify
this unprecedented urgency?
Did trans people storm the Capitol?
Did they steal classified nuclear intel
from the White House
and keep it in a humidor in Florida?
What is the threat?
We need to end the assault
on women's sports
by the radical gender-left.
Come on.
Not every one of those words
could be equally important.
[audience laughs]
And the same note.
It's the end of women's sports.
It's just the end.
Women's sports as we know it will die.
[audience laughs]
And I assume that when they die,
for tax reasons,
you will bury them on your golf course.
[audience laughing, applauding]
Now, there have been 77
anti-trans sports bills
introduced this year alone.
There have been more anti-trans
sports bills introduced this year
than trans people dominating sports
in the history of women's sports.
And by the by, I don't know
if you're familiar with the Olympics,
but they've been trying to answer
this incredibly simple question
of "what is a woman" for 80 years.
And here's how some of that went.
In 1966,
a Polish sprinter was deemed a woman
via a controversial anatomy test.
I think you know what that means.
In 1967, a chromosome test done on
this athlete deemed her not to be a woman.
And, of course, in 1968, she had a baby.
A baby!
And then obviously in 1969,
she had the summer of her life.
[audience laughs]
[lip-synching "Summer of '69"]
It all boils down to this.
Clearly, just because you strongly believe
that something is simple and undeniable
doesn't mean that that belief
will be backed up
by the correlating and corresponding data.
God, that's not pithy enough--
What-- If only there was a way
to monetize that thought
in the most cynical way possible.
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Nailed it!
Take a look at this.
[audience applauding, cheering]
Let's all pray.
Dear God
I know you
-make no mistakes
but these
-transgender people--
What is that about? Sincere question.
And no disrespect to anybody
but I've got a message for you
that I must preach.
This country was founded on the idea
a boy has a penis, a girl has a vagina.
In the name of Jesus.
-Oh, thank you, Jesus.
I mean, I don't have a problem with
-gay people.
I have gay friends.
I don't know anybody
that doesn't have a gay friend.
But these
-transgender, intersex, nonbinary
perverts--
-No offense.
They're killing
-girls' and women's sports.
[crowd boos]
We need to save
-women's swim team
archery
-women's volleyball, women's tennis.
Even though
-women's sports
not as cool as
-the men's sports.
Angelic reinforcement,
angelic reinforcement.
[speaking in tongues]
We don't have a problem
with transgender people.
But, Lord, we ask you
-please
give us the power
-to check
the exact size and shape
of their genitals.
Just a little peek.
In Jesus's name, we pray.
-Hallelujah!
Amen.
-[all] Amen.
[audience laughing, applauding]
I've known I was trans
from, um, my earliest memories.
Gender dysphoria is a disconnect
from your mind and body.
So, what I could be feeling up here
isn't the same thing
I see myself in the mirror as.
But gender-affirming care,
it helps us see what we feel.
It took me, I wanna say,
almost eight months
of sending in authorizations,
getting medical necessity documents,
for example,
going to counseling, going to therapy,
having all of the documentation lined up,
um, before they actually approved it.
So, at that point, I was just so relieved.
It finally made me feel, like,
home in my body.
We're talking about
allowing people the ability
to live in their own authenticity.
Legislators are trying to ban doctors
from providing gender-affirming care.
Our state representatives claim
to be pro-life,
but they want to play
with children's lives.
This is health care,
and it shouldn't be a game.
[audience applauding]
All right. So, gender-affirming care.
There's [stammers]
obviously very strong feelings about it.
But what is the deal of it?
We've assembled a panel that can tell us
what it is, what it's not,
why people are trying
to block access to it
and why they're trying to get access.
Keisha Michaels is with us.
She is the mother
of a transgender teenager from Maryland.
Debi Jackson, mother
of a transgender teenager from Missouri.
Chase Strangio, a lawyer with the ACLU
who's argued in front of
the Supreme Court.
And Dr. Joshua Safer,
endocrinologist at Mount Sinai
and an author
of the Endocrine Society's guidelines
for gender-affirming care.
Welcome, everybody.
Thank you for joining us. All right.
-[audience applauding]
[stammers] I want to go right at it and--
and give you a sense of, you know,
it's a real, uh, hot-button issue
in this country right now,
a culture war issue.
The critics are saying
that gender-affirming care
is nothing more than, uh,
woke doctors and woke parents
and activists, uh,
manipulating confused children
into mutilations
and life-altering, uh,
experimental drug therapies.
Now, you both have children.
What's your experience been with this?
Well, it's interesting
that folks might say
that these are woke parents
'cause my husband and I weren't
really woke about this.
[laughs] We had a child
who was telling us that they--
that, you know,
she's been a girl her whole life,
and we were not really listening.
I'm not sure how woke we were.
-Mm-hmm. Right.
I kind of wish we were more woke.
I wish we had been able
to hear her sooner.
Um, took us a few years to really listen
and appreciate
that she was telling us who she was.
Um, and when we did, she-- it was--
she was like a new child.
She just literally lit up, woke up.
She woke up when we supported her.
We said,
"We recognize that this is who you are,
and we're gonna support you in our house.
And we're gonna support you in your life."
Wow.
-And when that happened, she's like,
"This is amazing."
She really didn't have words for it
as a ten-year-old.
She'd been telling us since she was three.
And since that time,
what we deal with now is a child
who is now almost going to college.
[Stewart] Right.
-She's in high school.
And I told someone the other day, I said,
"You know, her being trans
is the least interesting thing about her."
Right. Was this your experience as well?
Was it--
Was it something that shocked you?
Was it something that was difficult
for you to accept?
Uh, yes. It was completely
out of my realm of understanding.
I was very conservative, evangelical,
you know, Southern Baptist, GOP.
But at the age of four, Avery said,
"Mom, you think that I'm a boy,
but I'm a girl.
I'm a girl on the inside,"
and very directly told us. Um--
[clicks tongue]
We had no idea what that meant.
Uh, again, this--
it was out of our thinking.
We thought maybe we have a gay boy
who's confused.
We thought the same thing.
We went to ask questions.
-[chuckles]
We talked to doctors. We--
We went to endocrinologists
just to check the XX, XYs, all the things.
Um, and we had to come to understand
that our child knew who they were.
And, mind you, they're 15 now.
This was more than a decade ago.
[Stewart] Right.
-They weren't influenced by TikTok.
They weren't on Facebook.
-[Michaels laughs]
Um, at four--
-So you're saying this is YouTube.
Yeah, clearly. Clearly.
-[audience laughing]
Maybe-- Maybe a Myspace page
-[all laughing]
Sure.
-they stumbled across.
You're saying that Friendster
-Yeah. Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
Now, okay,
so you live in a conservative community.
Now, generally that is where the energy
for the push against gender-affirming care
is coming from.
The people in your life,
knowing what you went through,
knowing what your child went through,
did that dent their belief system
in any way?
I wish I could say it did.
Um, we were the most conservative
out of all the families
in our, uh, friend group
with kids at preschool and everything.
But when we said,
"This is who our child is,"
um, we lost our-- all of our friends.
We really had to rebuild
from the ground up
because we lost our entire support system.
So, Chase, you know,
you're fighting in the legal arena here,
and-- and you're working for the ACLU,
and you're seeing--
These families, they're all trying to
come to terms with how to deal with this,
and it's a huge struggle.
Well, I wanna say--
Yeah, so first of all [stammers]
these parents, their experiences,
that's what we hear across the country
-[Stewart] Mm-hmm.
across communities and around the world,
that kids know who they are,
that what improves their health,
what makes them thrive
is love and support.
When we hear about experimental surgery,
that is not happening on children, period.
Children means pre-pubertal children.
There are no medical interventions,
period.
That is a distortion designed
to make people support legislation
targeting our communities.
What we do know harms children,
for example,
is removing them from loving homes.
That is what Governor Abbott
is suggesting be done in Texas.
And this is all--
This has been really a rapid rise.
This has gone to,
"These are mutilations of children,
and we're going to step in as the state"
[Michaels] Mm-hmm.
"and take children out of homes
if they are going to abide by
gender-affirming care."
Now, why are people doing this?
I think
that there's two fundamental reasons why.
One, we're approaching midterms.
We're approaching
a 2024 presidential election.
That cynical. It's that cynical.
It is that cynical.
-Wow.
Go to the early 2000s.
When did we start seeing attacks
on same-sex couples and marriage escalate?
Election years, mobilizing a voting base.
And then there's another reason,
which is an investment in a far-right,
Christian ideology.
That is also fueling people.
But again, in theory we have a separation
of church and state.
In theory we should be--
-[Stewart] In this country?
Well, we used to. Yeah, yeah.
-[audience laughing]
I wasn't sure now.
-You may have had--
"Are you from, uh" Okay.
-Yeah.
It was back in the Friendster days.
Oh, I understand. Okay.
-Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
But let me ask you,
as-- as the doctor, then,
what is the harm of waiting
until they're "the age of majority"?
What are the downsides of
not giving gender-affirming care because--
or any of those drug therapies?
What would be the harm in waiting?
The statistic is something like
40% of kids who are--
who do not come into
an affirming situation--
Which just means being respectful to them.
It doesn't mean any treatment
in particular.
40% are contemplating suicide.
And, um, and-- and self-harm rates--
So these-- the guidelines that you wrote,
because you were-- you were responsible,
with, uh, the endocrine board,
for writing guidelines of care
for endocrinologists.
The Endocrine Society, yes. Yes.
-[Stewart] The Endocrine Society.
And-- And that was based on, uh,
research papers, data,
the things that you saw intervening
with gender-affirming care,
which may be just being respectful,
or, as they get older,
some of these other things.
You've seen that have, uh,
a reduction in depression,
a reduction in suicide.
That's what you've studied.
Absolutely. And-- And to be really clear,
you used the word "woke."
Um, the medical establishment is--
is not woke.
[all laughing]
-At all.
At all. [laughs]
I'm sorry, my doctor
in Greenwich Village would beg to differ.
[audience, panelists laughing]
Uh, that's understood.
And so then what the-- it shifts to is,
this is a profit center for you.
That this is a cynical exploitation
by Big Pharma
to make money off of confused children.
[Safer] That too is crazy
because the areas of medicine that are
brought in for gender-affirming care
are heavily mental health, pediatrics,
primary care, endocrinology.
If you look up where the--
where the money centers are in medicine,
those are not they.
I had five colonoscopies last week.
[audience, panelists laughing]
Not part of gender-affirming care.
-[Jackson chuckles]
First, I'd like to just make sure
we clarify the different types
of transitions
because we've talked about--
there's no medical intervention.
So, Avery socially transitioned
at the age of four.
So it was just name, pronouns, hair,
saying daughter instead of son.
Um, before we did
that kind of affirmation,
Avery was depressed,
talked about death all the time,
and actually tried
to jump out of our car--
At four?
-At four. Just could not handle it.
Doing that kind of social affirmation
gave us a kid who smiled again,
who said, "Mommy, I love you,"
all the time.
We have a whole year
between three and four
where we don't have a photo
of Avery smiling.
And that changed
just through social affirmation.
So when people call us child abusers
and say it's horrible to do this, it's--
They don't understand the realities.
Is that the razor's edge
you feel like you're living in, Keisha?
That you feel like
it's such a fragile situation that,
"I have to do everything I can
to save this child's life"?
That's how I felt before she transitioned.
[Stewart] Right.
So, the year before she transitioned,
I knew--
She was also verbalizing
that she did not want to live.
She, uh-- [stammers] And I-- I said,
"I don't want to lose my child."
So we may have had our head in the sands
about what was really going on
Mm-hmm.
-uh, acknowledging this.
So, yes, there was a razor's edge
for sure at that point.
Once we actually affirmed this child
she's actually been fine.
[laughs] She's on her phone too much.
That's her biggest problem.
-[audience laughing]
And so, she needed--
-My child only reads novels.
[audience laughing]
-Exactly, right?
I-- Well, I-- Not true in our house.
But I will say that, uh, once she tran--
Honestly, once she had the
"gender-affirming care" of her parents.
Let's say that.
-[Stewart] Right.
Gender-affirming care starts at home.
And so once she had
her parents' gender-affirming care,
everything else just kind of
fell into place for her.
For most kids who are trans,
having to go through a puberty
that doesn't match their identity
is quite traumatic.
So anytime that we can prevent that
from happening for them,
I think it is particularly helpful.
Now, not every person who is trans
wants something done to their body,
so I do wanna make sure
that we make that point.
But for a lot of folks--
And the gender-affirming care
is supposed to figure out what's right
for each individual child.
-For that-- Exactly.
Chase, the legal battle now is
to not give parents that choice.
To basically say, "We understand.
You can call your child
whatever name you want, whatever pronoun,
but we will not put them--
We will not allow them
to go through this gender-affirming care."
It's-- I think the words they use are
"permanent," "irreversible,"
"does untold damage"
Yeah. The politicians--
The parental rights politicians of,
"My kid doesn't have to wear a mask,
I don't have to vaccinate my kid,
my kid doesn't have to learn
critical race theory in school,"
are passing laws that say we are going to
take away the ability of parents
to give their children lifesaving care.
And they're making arguments like,
"It's a fad."
That they're being subjected
to social transition.
Well, you know what?
I grew up as a young trans person
in a totally different time.
You know the one trans-masculine person
that I knew about? Brandon Teena.
You know what happened to him?
He was murdered.
I had nothing else. That was the reality.
And now, there are more people,
thankfully, who can live
because they have loving parents
who are able to go to affirming doctors.
[Stewart] Right.
-But the state is coming in,
many states,
passing laws trying to ban this care.
Um, starting with Arkansas,
the first state to do it in 2021.
Now we have additional states,
and we're fighting across the country
to try to make sure that parents
can get the medically supported care
and make decisions in conjunction with
their doctors to save their kids' lives.
Well, then, uh,
I think the only thing to do at this point
is to go talk to
the Attorney General of Arkansas.
[Strangio] Mmm.
Uh, and, uh, we will do that.
Uh, I want to thank you all very much
for being here.
Keisha, Debi, uh, Chase, and Dr. Safer.
Thank you so much for being here.
[audience applauding]
-Uh, take a look at this.
[audience laughing]
Two genders?
What, do you think I, God Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth and calzones,
made only two kinds of humans, yes?
You basic, bipedal fucks.
I deserve way more credit than that.
Have you seen the complexity of my work?
Look, let me-- let me find something here.
[stammering] Look at this.
Platypus. Look at this guy.
He's got tits, fur, a bill, lays eggs.
And those tits, they're not ornamental.
They work.
Do you get it? I like trying shit.
It's fun for me. It's what I do.
But lo, I say unto thee,
I'm not a fan of critics.
I created humans, and I love you all,
but like I said to the dinosaurs,
"Fuck around and find out."
-[audience laughing]
Before I go, l-let me show you some of
my latest stuff here. Look at this.
AnaHonda.
-[car alarm beeps]
Half snake, half Honda.
What's this right here?
Hotter, an otter that is incredibly hot.
And so cute with her glaze, with her clam.
Cheese river. River flowing with cheese.
Eh, I'm just kidding.
You wish, motherfuckers.
All right. Aliens are real. I'm out.
[audience cheering, applauding]
Hey.
So,
as I mentioned to our distinguished panel,
we went to Arkansas.
And we didn't just talk to, like,
somebody off the street.
We talked to
the Attorney General of Arkansas.
[audience member groans]
[Stewart whines]
-[audience laughing]
[Stewart] Is it Attorney Generals
or Attorneys General?
Attorneys General.
-Attorneys General.
It's a very odd plural.
Attorney General Rutledge.
That's right.
-Thank you for joining us.
Tell us about the SAFE Act.
What is the SAFE Act?
We passed law in Arkansas
a couple of years ago called the SAFE Act,
which stands for
Save Adolescents From Experimentation.
And essentially what it does, Jon,
is to prevent, uh, young people
from being, uh-- go through
these experimental procedures
to transition their gender
from male to female
and from female to male.
What do you mean by experimentation?
Well, all of these, uh, drugs
we're talking about
have not been approved,
and these are experimental procedures
to transition, uh, these young people,
these adolescents essentially,
from male to female
-Mm-hmm.
or from female to male.
And what we passed in Arkansas
was to simply say that you can't do that,
that we are going
to protect these children.
So this is--
-Doesn't prevent them as an 18-year-old--
I think that's what's important
-Right.
for Arkansans
and Americans to understand.
This does not prevent someone
at age 18 from making that decision.
How many Arkansans in the last five years
before the law was passed
had that surgery, uh,
to transition from male to female
or female to male as a minor?
Well, that answer I don't know, uh, Jon.
Uh, in our research, it was zero.
So it's-- it definitely hasn't happened.
So you're saying this is--
It's purely a preventative measure.
It's not stopping something
that's currently happening.
This is predominantly to also
protect them from those drugs,
uh, that are being used
to change their hormones.
That it's not only--
-Right.
You know,
when people think of transitioning
they think of having actual surgery.
Right.
-Whether that's--
But it's not simply the surgery.
It's hormone suppressants
and puberty blockers
that we're talking about.
So, let me give you the--
the flip side of it.
I think a lot of people might say,
including myself, uh,
it's surprising that the state would say,
"We wanna make a decision for your family
and your child to protect them,"
even though
the American Medical Association,
the American Association of Pediatrics,
the Endocrine Society,
the American Association of Psychiatrists,
all recommend a certain set of guidelines
for children
that are expressing gender dysphoria.
So I guess my surprise is,
why would the state of Arkansas
step in to override
parents, physicians,
psychiatrists, endocrinologists,
who have developed guidelines?
Why would you override those guidelines?
Well, I think it's important
that all of those physicians,
all of those experts--
For every single one of them,
there's an expert that says,
"We don't need to allow children
to be able to take those medications."
That there are many instances where--
-Right.
But you know that's not true.
You know it's not,
"For every one, there's one."
There's,
"These are the established medical"--
Well, I don't know that that's not true.
I don't know that you know that.
Why would you pass a law, then,
if you don't--
if you don't know that that's true?
Well, I know that there are doctors
and that we had plenty of people come
and testify before our legislature
-Mm-hmm.
who said that, uh, you know,
we have 98% of the young people
who have gender dysphoria are--
Right.
that they are able to move past that.
And once they have the--
the help that they need,
no longer suffer from
gender dysphoria. 98%.
Wow.
-Without, uh, that medical treatment--
That's an--
That's an incredibly made-up figure.
[audience laughing]
-That's--
That doesn't comport with any of
the studies or documentation that exists
from these medical organizations.
What-- What medical association
are you talking about of these doctors?
Well, we have all of that in our,
uh, legislative history,
and we'll be glad to provide that to you.
Uh, I don't have the name of that
off the top of my head. I know--
You don't have the name of
the organization? That--
Off the top of my head.
Oh, okay.
-But, yes.
We have all of that cited
in all of our briefs.
You're suggesting that protecting children
means overriding the recommendations
of the American Medical Association,
the American Association of Pediatrics,
the Endocrine Society?
We don't have enough data.
We don't have enough to show
that these drugs are effective
and that these children are better off
and that we should encourage--
You don't have enough,
or it's not enough for you?
Let-- Let me try and flip it
a different way
and see if maybe this-- this can help.
In Arkansas,
if you have pediatric cancer--
And obviously
we all wanna protect children.
I think we established that earlier.
Whose guidelines do you follow
for pediatric cancer?
Well, I think, if my child, who is four--
If I was faced with that terrible,
uh, decision,
then I would be speaking to my doctor.
And if my doctor recommended
something that I disagreed with,
then I would get a second opinion.
And that's why I believe
that these parents need to make sure
that they're encouraged
to get numerous opinions
when they're talking about
an irreversible step.
You're not letting them.
The state's not saying,
"Get another opinion."
What they're saying is, "You can't."
What you're actually saying
is the opposite.
That's actually not at all
what the state said.
The state simply said that
you cannot perform these procedures.
And so, parents should get
another opinion. That they--
And children should want
to have another opinion.
But that's not--
-Because, again, these are nine, ten--
So, if your child is suffering
from pediatric cancer
and the state comes in and says to you,
"They recommend chemotherapy,
but we're not going to let you do that.
You can't.
We think you should
get a different opinion,
and here's the organization we think
you should get the opinion from.
They're not the mainstream,
but they're an organization.
So, that's how you--
That's who you have to be treated by."
Does that sound like
something you would accept?
I think that's a very extreme example
that's not at all in line with
what we're talking about.
We're not saying that at some point--
Because when you have cancer,
it literally is--
And particularly pediatric cancer,
and having friends
that have lost children
Sure.
-to pediatric cancer--
Having a four-year-old, I'm sure--
-I've got some bad news for you.
Parents with children
who have gender dysphoria
have lost children
to suicide and depression
They absolutely have.
-because it's acute.
And so, these mainstream medical
organizations have developed guidelines
through peer-reviewed data and studies.
And through those guidelines,
they've improved mental health outcomes.
So, I'm confused why you follow
AMA guidelines and AAAP guidelines
for all other health issues in Arkansas,
because we checked,
but not for this.
It's simply saying,
"Let those young people who are facing
gender confusion and dysphoria--
Allow them to become adults
and to make that decision.
Allow a child to be a child."
So, here's where we have our--
our crossroads.
You've made the determination
that protecting these children
means not giving them access
to the guidelines in care
that have been designed by medical
and mental health professionals
for children expressing gender dysphoria.
And I'm asking you again,
what are your qualifications
to step in and say,
"No. Keeping you from that care
is protecting you."
You've made that determination.
Well, these are irreversible decisions
that these children at these young ages
are making or that their parents--
They're not making the decision.
You're making it sound like
a nine-year-old walks into
a doctor's office and says,
"Give me some testosterone."
And the doctor goes, "Oh, thank God.
Because we're wanting to create an army
of transgenders because we're crazy."
And, they go right in like--
-No.
We passed a law to protect
the children in Arkansas,
and I think that's what is important.
Again, the medical community disagrees
with you that that's protecting children.
Well, not all of the medical community.
-Who doesn't?
We have had experts testify
here in Arkansas.
Okay. From what medical organizations?
Well, we have all of those in our briefs.
And I apologize that I wasn't prepared
to have a Supreme Court argument today
in front of you.
But, uh, we are going to have
arguments on this case
Right.
-uh, when the time comes.
Let me ask you this. Do you think gender
and sex are complicated?
I think it's obvious
that it is complicated.
And for these young people--
-So why make a black-and-white decision?
And for those that are
faced with this confusion,
I think we need to give them
the help they need.
Who do you want to give
the mental health care?
Because you've already said
that the guidelines from the American
Psychiatric Association are not correct.
To them, a successful, uh,
conclusion of this
is a child who determines,
with their family and their caregivers
and their mental health, uh, experts
and their physician,
what the best course of treatment is.
It may be that they get into it
and decide,
"This is not for me.
I'm not actually transgender."
But you're stepping in and saying,
"That's not the help they need."
Well, I think it is important for them to
[stammers] speak to
and have that mental health treatment.
Just because, again, that we disagree
with whether or not they can have
gender-transitioning medications
or surgeries
does not mean that they can't have
the opportunity to speak to
licensed therapists and psychiatrists.
But you understand,
when you go to speak to a psychiatrist,
they have guidelines that they follow.
And the guidelines are developed
through peer review studies.
What I'm saying is that our reasoning
behind passing this law in Arkansas
is not to discriminate,
but it's simply to protect and allow
those children to continue to develop.
We're not gonna allow young people,
a 16-year-old, or-- to vote.
We're not gonna let them buy cigarettes.
We're not gonna let them
So you're--
-do all of these things--
You're suggesting that buying cigarettes
is equivalent to gender dysphoria?
No, I'm not suggesting that.
I'm saying that we have laws
that are recognized
that we say that age of majority is
the point in which someone
can make a decision for--
-So--
If a child says, "I'm depressed"--
-Can't even rent a car until you're 25.
Okay. So, why allow children
to get access to ADHD medication,
or depression medication,
or bipolar medication?
Well, it's because
it's changing permanently.
It's not. It's just not.
-It's not changing--
Puberty blockers aren't changing people
permanently. They're-- They're just not.
And the bar to get things
that have
maybe slightly more permanence to it
is higher.
And it takes longer. That's how
the guidelines have been developed.
Arkansas has simply said, "We're going to
allow these children to be children."
And as they are--
And we wanna, again, encourage them
to have access to the mental health care.
Because none of us can imagine,
whether it's my daughter, your daughter,
your son, anybody--
If my daughter or my son came to me
in agony,
and I knew there was a program
that I could get them into
that had positive effects
on their mental health,
I would swim across rivers
and climb mountains
and tunnel through
whatever I needed to get to
to save that child's life.
And my guess is you'd do the same.
-And I think--
And I truly hope you're never
faced with that decision.
Because I imagine
it's agonizing for the parent.
Yes.
-And it's agonizing for the child.
But the fact that you've removed
that option for people
seems antithetical to
the values you profess to espouse.
Well, again,
nothing is going to stop that child,
when he or she turns 18,
from being able to make this decision.
Well, something will stop them:
if they don't turn 18.
I mean, I don't think it's fair to put--
and to say to a child,
"You're going to kill yourself
if you don't take this medicine."
That's essentially what you--
-[scoffs] What?
That's all you talk about is
-Who's saying that?
that the suicide rate is through the roof
for these young people.
The suicide rate isn't through the roof
because doctors want them
to take the medicine.
It's because they live in a state
where who they are is actually
something that is viewed as,
uh, something that needs to be legislated.
That a lot of the pressure
that they feel isn't from who they are
but from society's reaction
to who they are.
And from people like the state of Arkansas
outlawing the treatment
that can help their mental, uh, health
and their physical health.
All I've heard from you
-Mm-hmm.
and from this very vocal minority--
What "vocal minority"
are you talking about?
The opponents of our law in Arkansas
and those who are challenging it.
Not just the plaintiffs--
"Vocal minority" meaning the AMA,
the AAP, the Endocrine Society.
You're saying that "vocal minority"?
But it's a vocal minority of Americans,
and I think that's what's important.
And of Arkansans.
Why don't you consider allowing children
who are experiencing gender dysphoria--
Isn't it experimentation
to not put them through treatment?
Isn't that also experimentation?
Why are you willing to experiment on them
by doing nothing?
I'm not saying let's do nothing.
Well, you're not saying to follow
the guidelines.
So [stammers] what should you do?
-Well, they're "guidelines."
I'm saying get a second opinion. Talk--
Talk to other doctors. Talk to family.
Let this child--
But isn't that experimentation?
How is that not experimentation?
Because this other stuff has been
determined through data and peer review.
But we haven't had enough data
and peer review.
So it's all an experiment, isn't it?
I have to be honest with you.
The care and guidelines
for transgender children
seem a lot more considered and thought-out
than the law preventing them
from getting it,
where you can't even cite the medical
organization that agrees with you.
So, if we're talking about
one decision that seems rash
and one decision that seems conservative,
it's the guidelines for transition
seems conservative,
and the law seems rash.
Well, I believe that the outcry--
And by those who are wanting to use
these young people as political pawns--
And to attack those of us who put
these sort of laws in place
Uh-huh. Right.
-are the ones who are, in fact,
putting these children at risk
and making them--
And putting them on public display
and making it part of
the mainstream media conversation.
This was not part of
the mainstream media conversation, uh,
five years ago, ten years ago.
But now these children
are being put on display
by those who are claiming to protect them,
when, instead, we need to ensure, again,
that they are working through this
with their own families,
their own doctors, their communities--
You're-- You're making that illegal.
[audience laughing]
-All right.
Uh, we do appreciate you sitting down
and talking to us about it.
And, uh, I-- I hope that, uh, the law is--
is shot down.
Because I do think
-[audience laughing, applauding]
that these children are
in a very vulnerable situation.
And I-- I disagree with you
that this protects them.
I actually think the opposite.
Oh.
-But thank you.
Well, thank you for coming to Arkansas.
Making a quick trip.
Thank you, though. Appreciate it.
-Thank you, Jon.
[audience laughing, applauding]
Worst Thanksgiving ever.
[audience laughing]
Yeah, yep.
I assume it felt watching it
like it felt being there.
Little bit of sphincter tightening.
Uh, thank you, all,
for watching this episode.
That's gonna put us all on the same page.
For more resources,
check out these websites.
We also got the podcast there which,
as you know, is a window to the soul.
Uh, and check out our website.
It's, uh, the best zeros and ones
that have been put together on the Net.
Before we go,
we always end the show on a low note.
Here it is, your moment of Cruz.
When Ketanji Brown Jackson
was up for nomination
[crowd boos]
there was a reporter who ran up to me,
all excited, and he said
he was asking every Senate Republican
on the Judiciary Committee
the following question: "What is a woman?"
"What is a woman?"
And he looks at me with this "gotcha."
And I turned to him and said,
"Um, an adult female human?"
[chuckles] You sly dog.
[audience laughing, cheering, applauding]