Adam Ruins Everything (2015) s02e23 Episode Script
Adam Ruins Guns
My, what a beautiful feast.
Turkey, green bean casserole Gosh darnit, this family just makes me feel like I'm the richest man on Earth.
And it would not be a Donnerman family Thanksgiving without Eva's yams.
Aww thanks, Mr.
Donnerman.
I'm so thankful that we could do a family Thanksgiving this year.
I'm thankful the two of you made it here safe, what with all the maniacs out in the world these days.
Okay, Dad.
Well, I'm just saying, there's a reason every time I leave the house, I'm carrying.
Right, your gun.
That's your answer to everything.
Sarah, not now.
No, he needs to get it.
This country is in desperate need of common sense gun control.
Oh, I get it, all right.
You wanna take away my rights to my guns It doesn't matter how much you like guns.
which the founding fathers gave me.
We need to talk about this country's gun problem.
You're right, we do.
But neither of you know as much about gun violence in America as you think you do.
Who's this tur-dork-en? Okay, just for that, I'm startin' with you.
Hi, I'm Adam Conover.
Hi, Adam! I'm Doris! And this is "Adam Ruins Everything.
" Closed Captions Provided by truTV Ew.
You're here to tell him he's wrong about his precious gun rights, right? He is obviously here to tell you that gun control is unconstitutional.
Nope, I'm not here to tell either of you what you want to hear.
Both of you are gonna have your beliefs challenged today.
But how you can tell me that we don't need basic common-sense gun control? I mean, we have to put an end to all these mass shootings.
Look, I am not gonna downplay the fact that mass shootings are terrible, all-too-frequent tragedies.
But the hard truth is, they're just the beginning of America's gun violence problem.
And a lot of these common-sense gun control solutions aren't the quick and easy fix you think they are.
Come on, I can think of like a million things we could do right now.
Number one, ban assault weapons.
Yeah, we could do that.
But if your goal is to reduce gun violence, you should know that the biggest guns aren't the biggest problem.
In 2015, shootings with rifles, including assault rifles, made up less 3% of gun homicides in America.
The majority of crimes are committed with handguns.
Enough about assault rifles.
Does anyone want the pepper rifle? - Thank God! - Oh! How can any of you eat right now? Okay, say we did ban sale of some specific types of guns.
It's not like every crime is committed with a brand-new firearm straight from the store.
There are an estimated 300 million guns already in circulation.
Then let's just take them away.
All right, uh, how do you propose we go about that? Yeah, how exactly? Okay, so maybe it's not that easy.
But what if we start by making it voluntary? A buy back? Unfortunately, studies show that when cities and counties hold buy-back programs, they mostly end up getting broken guns people just don't want anymore.
Here, take this one.
It's jammed.
But Australia did a buyback after they had a mass shooting, and mass shootings went down.
So, let's just do whatever they did.
Oh, that would never fly here.
That's not a buyback.
This is a buyback.
Australia passed a federal ban on imports and sales on all automatic and semi-automatic guns.
And we bought back guns people already owned at full market value.
That does make it insanely difficult and costly for you Yanks.
America has 84 times as many guns as Australia.
The biggest reason we can't just copy Australia, is that right now America doesn't have the cultural will to.
Australia doesn't have anything like the Second Amendment - or the NRA.
- Oh, "F" the NRA.
Politicians need to stop taking their dirty gun money.
Actually, that's something many people misunderstand about the NRA.
While it's true that they do spend a ton of money on lobbying, that's not the real source of their influence.
Their real power is their mass membership and their ability to organize.
Every year, a million people receive NRA firearms training.
And for many, even if they're not officially members, the NRA is a way for them to bond with others who share their view that guns hold a sacred place in American culture.
It's kind of like a social network.
Yeah.
I took lessons with that man.
But more importantly, it's also a social movement.
Politicians aren't caving to the NRA because of their money.
It's because they have millions of civically-engaged members who show up to town halls and who vote.
Hey, Dan, after bowling, 100 of us are gonna head over to see that congressman tryin' to implement that new gun control policy, give him a piece of our mind! Dad, you cannot be friends with these gun nuts! Man, are you guys ready to eat yet? No.
Sarah, you might think that what the NRA is fighting for is wrong.
Well, you're not alone.
66% of Americans support stronger gun control laws.
But focusing only on the NRA's lobbying money is a big mistake.
They're passionate, they're organized, and right now, there is no comparable anti-gun organization that has their levels of mass membership or engagement.
Well, why isn't there? We shouldn't have to live in a world where we're afraid to go to concerts and kids don't even feel safe going to school.
I am with you on that.
And this is gonna be hard to hear, but it is the most important misconception about guns that we need to correct.
Mass shootings may get all the media attention, but they're just a small part of the story of gun violence in America.
Got that right.
According to one estimate, in the last 50 years, about 1,100 people have been killed in mass shootings.
But 93 people die of gun violence every day.
That means that we have more gun deaths every 12 days than all the mass shootings in recent U.
S.
history combined.
Around 60% of America's gun deaths are from suicides.
The rest are largely urban violence and accidents.
Doesn't all that just show we have to do something? Absolutely.
But the fact is, America already has 300 million guns in circulation, and they aren't just gonna disappear overnight.
If we really want to reduce gun violence, we have to understand that the right solutions aren't always the ones that seem the most basic or common-sense.
And focusing on the wrong solutions is just gonna distract us from finding the right ones.
Well said.
Gun control's a pipe dream.
Oh, not at all, Dan! We have strong evidence that some gun control measures do reduce gun deaths.
Child access prevention laws, certain background checks.
I don't think the founding fathers would like that.
There's a reason we have a Second Amendment, you know.
Oh, the founding fathers didn't nearly intend Blue, 42.
Set shotgun! You can't even go five seconds without yelling about guns? I will not stand here and allow you to besmirch the Second Amendment rights - given to us by our founding fath - Blitz! Actually it's pretty unlikely the founding fathers were thinking about your individual right to own a gun.
That interpretation of the Second Amendment is actually quite recent.
Yay, homerun! Nope, we're going to watch the parade.
There's compelling evidence that the founding fathers' attitude towards guns was less like this Citizens have a God-given right to pack all the heat - they can handle.
- Hut-hut, sign! and more like this.
Okay, let's see.
We have freedom of speech, freedom of religion.
Oh, and we have to guarantee the states' rights to maintain a militia.
Oh, you mean how at this point in history, 1789, every state has its own part-time conscripted army? Yeah, we're gonna want to keep those around.
The state's right to bear arms is what protects us from federal government overreach! Are you sure that's all they meant by bear arms? Maybe they were talking about the individual's right to defend himself and his home.
Well, that's pretty unlikely because guns at the time were completely impractical for self-defense.
They were difficult to load quickly, and gunpowder was super dangerous.
I brought my gun just in case.
No, you idiot! Historians still disagree about the founders' intent.
But a search of all the writings of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton, and Franklin for the phrase "bear arms" revealed they only used that phrase in a military context, and that's how Americans understood the amendment for a long time.
For over 200 years, the U.
S.
Supreme Court declined to rule that the Second Amendment had anything to do with individual gun rights.
Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! I have a constitutional right to Flag on the play! The Supreme Court will not rule on this issue! Oh, come on! Are you blind, ref?! Where the was the NRA when all this was going down? Well, they were pretty different back then.
When the National Rifle Association was founded after the Civil War, they weren't heartland warriors.
They were genteel cultured aristocrats focused on improving Yankee marksmanship.
Oh, yoo-hoo, boys in blue.
You have embarrassed us in front of the South! You're all in dire need of shooting lessons! But they didn't believe that everyone should own a gun.
In fact, during the '20s and '30s, the NRA even supported some gun control measures.
Gosh darnit, where's the NRA that I know and love? Oh, they didn't show up until the '60s and '70s.
A new faction of NRA members wanted the organization to be more hardcore about gun rights.
So, in 1977, they overthrew the leadership in a dramatic coup known as the Revolt at Cincinnati.
You'll have to pry my guns from my cold, dead hand! And this new NRA led a decades-long battle to change our understanding of the Second Amendment.
They sponsored law reviews, they gained allies in the legal community, and they helped seat gun-friendly judges all the way up to the Supreme Court.
Slowly, but surely, public opinion began to change.
And in the 2008 case, DC versus Heller, they finally got what they wanted.
For the first time in history, the court will rule on this issue.
The Second Amendment in fact does defend an individual right to bear arms.
What?! They can't just change what the Constitution means.
Actually, they can.
And it was all perfectly legal.
This is Adam Winkler, a law professor at UCLA whose scholarship has been cited in landmark Supreme Court cases.
Hope you guys don't mind I invited a guest.
Adam, I thought you had a plus-one.
Anyway, the NRA's campaign changed our society and our legal culture's understanding of what the Second Amendment means.
Agree or not, the NRA's campaign was totally legal, and it worked.
Well, okay! That means that now, gun control is unconstitutional and un-American.
No, no, no.
Gun control is as much a part of our history as gun rights.
And in fact, the founding fathers had gun control laws.
And in the Heller ruling, conservative justice Antonin Scalia made crystal clear that most forms of gun control remain constitutionally permissible.
So, Dan, yes, the NRA won.
But that doesn't mean that all forms of gun control are unconstitutional.
And it doesn't mean that we can use myths about the founding fathers' intentions to shout down people who are working to stop gun violence.
Well, if you and your professor friend are all done with your speeches, I'd like to go eat.
You know, Dan, if you believe in gun rights, then you should know that not everybody in this country gets to exercise them.
- Where I grew up - Eva, please, enough.
I heard the pointy-haired man already.
Dad! Listen to her! Thanks to your rights, we can't even feel safe in our own neighborhood.
No, I'm not just talking about our neighborhood.
Well, any neighborhood.
Gun control keeps everyone safe.
- You don't even - No, actually historically, I mean You know what, I think I've had enough Donnerman family tradition for one day.
I'm gonna hit the pre-Black Friday sales.
I think I might know what she was trying to tell you guys.
I think it's a little awkward that I'm still here.
I'm gonna go.
Why did Eva get all upset and just leave? Gun control keeps everyone safe.
Or maybe she understands that we can't protect people from bad guys with guns if we don't have good guys with guns.
Uh, my guess is she's upset because gun control conversations in America are always centered around what makes white people feel safe.
All too often, black people are left completely out of the conversation.
I'm leaving black people out? My wife is black Oh, no, I just became one of those people.
Afraid so.
And I'm afraid that historically, gun control has been used to control and criminalize people of color.
In the early years of our country, many colonies and states had laws barring Native Americans and free black people from buying or owning guns.
What? But I have a receipt.
And racist fears of black people have continued to inform our gun control laws.
In 1960s California, the Black Panthers resisted police violence in Oakland by patrolling the city with guns.
We have a right to protect our communities against police officers abusing their power.
Defending yourself against a tyrannical government, I'm all about that.
Well, state lawmakers responded by passing a bill that banned open carry.
The bill applied to all Californians but it was meant to blatantly target the Black Panthers.
And that bill was signed by then California governor and NRA member, Ronald Reagan.
I'm just not comfortable with certain people carrying guns.
For, uh reasons.
- Oh - Eva.
Oh! Babe, I'm so sorry.
I had no idea gun control used to be so racist.
Is that what you told her? Well, I wasn't done.
So, not my responsibility to teach white people they own racist ass history.
All right, white Urkel, I'll take it from here.
Please do.
And thanks for the compliment.
Sarah, even today a lot of gun control laws really end up being about controlling black people.
In the mid-2000s, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms performed 10 years of stings to combat gun crime.
A full analysis found that 91% of people arrested were people of color.
And we're not just talking about the red states.
For years, New York City had an official policy to stop black and brown people on the street just to see if they might have guns or drugs.
Stop! Sir, you're in a public place and you look you know, dangerous.
What? Oh.
Sir? Records show that these stops almost never found guns.
Between '04 and 2012, 4.
4 million people were stopped, but only 1.
5% of them had weapons.
Men in my family have gotten jaywalking tickets from the NYPD after they didn't find anything in the stop and frisk.
They weren't stopping criminals, they were just stopping black people.
Eva, I'm sorry.
I had no idea.
You've never talked about it.
It's not her responsibility to talk about it, it's our responsibility as a country.
This is James Forman, Jr.
, Pulitzer Prize winner and author of the book "Locking Up Our Own.
" There's a connection between the overly punitive gun sentencing laws that were passed in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s and the current crisis of mass incarceration.
Instead of national gun control laws that could stop the flood of available guns, we have local laws that penalize possession.
And those laws are mostly passed in cities.
So, the result is that guns are everywhere, violence is rampant, and the only people who go to prison for possessing guns are poor people of color in our nation's cities.
Black people face the highest rates of deaths by guns.
But instead of protecting the families and neighborhoods who face the most gun violence, our current gun laws just double down on destroying them.
And that's why we shouldn't talk about new gun penalties without first talking about how we transform our criminal legal system.
All right, Adam, I got to get to my Thanksgiving dinner.
Well, I think we all learned a valuable lesson about gun control.
No, Dan.
There's something you need to realize too.
Gun rights don't protect black people either.
Take the stand your ground law the NRA pushed legislators to pass in Florida.
It says use of deadly force is justified to defend yourself in your home or car even if you can run away.
But in practice, not everyone gets to use it.
Marissa Alexander was sentenced to 20 years in prison just for firing a warning shot to defend herself against her abusive husband.
Stand your ground didn't help her.
Or look at what happened to Philando Castile.
During a routine traffic pullover, he informed the police officer that he had his gun on him.
And the cop shot and killed him in front of his girlfriend and her four-year-old daughter.
But I drive with my weapon every day.
That's not against the law.
Okay, so imagine I'm a police officer pulling you over and you're Philando Castile.
Do you have your license and insurance? Yes, officer, I do have to tell you I do have a firearm on me.
Okay, don't reach for it then.
- I'm I'm - Don't pull it out.
- I'm not pulling it out.
- He's not pulling it out.
- Don't pull it out.
- Bang! That is the exact moment Philando Castile was shot.
He did everything that responsible gun owners are supposed to do.
And the NRA didn't come to his defense.
For all their talk about protecting gun rights, they sure are quiet when black people are gunned down for exercising them.
So, Dan, I'm frustrated because black people are in jail or dead for exercising gun rights that you enjoy so freely.
And, Sarah, I'm hurt because, as my partner, you don't see that the gun control you have the privilege to fight for ignores the systemic persecution that I live in fear of every single day.
I'm gonna head back.
Wait.
Do you want a ride? Hey.
Hey.
Since you guys didn't let us eat dinner, Doris said we should just skip straight to pie.
Eva, I am so sorry.
My dad is too.
We didn't mean to upset you.
I appreciate that, but I don't want want you guys to just be sorry I was upset.
I want you to remember that for people that haven't had your experience in this country, that there is way more at stake in this gun debate.
We need a voice.
And you need to listen.
And, if I may add, if America is going to have the inclusive and effective conversation about guns that we so desperately need, we all need to admit that none of us knows enough yet to have all the answers.
So we need to be allowed to do more research.
That's right, Adam.
This is Doctor Garen Wintemute.
He is the director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at UC Davis.
We spend so much energy and political will fighting over whether or not America should have all these guns When the fact is: we do have them.
It's our reality.
That being the case, we need to start researching firearm violence as a public health problem.
But politics is getting in the way of funding that kind of research on the national level where it could really make a difference.
The NRA sees any form of research on guns as a threat, even when it's information that gun owners could really benefit from knowing.
We know, in general, that the more guns there are, the more people get hurt from gun violence.
But we don't know nearly enough about the risk factors for that violence, or the consequences for the victims, or even the effectiveness of specific policies, including policies that most Americans agree on like background checks.
Look, ultimately, we all want the same thing: to feel safe.
So, instead of shouting each other down, we need to have productive, rational conversations based on facts.
Can't we all at least agree on that? I can.
Yeah, me too.
And we shouldn't stop talking and listening as a country, but we can at least stop fighting about this tonight.
Huh, when you think about it, I didn't ruin Thanksgiving at all.
You guys kinda did.
Geez, man.
Learn how to read a room.
This might jiggle.
It's all fine.
And we have a nice breeze so it's all good.
Oh, my gosh.
Well, Adam, thank you so much for being on the show.
It was great having you.
- Thanks so much for having me.
- How did you start getting into this topic in the first place? Well, I'm a constitutional law professor at UCLA.
And the Second Amendment was an area that seemed very ambiguous.
What did that mean? And when I researched it, I found that the story of guns in America was much more complicated than the story the NRA has been selling us for so long.
That's so interesting that there's this line in our founding document that we can't even decide what, exactly, was meant by it.
That's so strange.
Well, the Second Amendment has all these commas in it, and it doesn't really make a lot of sense as a sentence.
- Right.
- But yet, it does capture a principle, a principle that we, the people, have a right of self-defense.
Can you walk me through where the commas are? Sure.
The Second Amendment says Comma.
And it's almost as if James Madison, the author of this provision, had just discovered this wonderful new thing, the comma.
And wanted to put it in there as many times as possible.
Which one of those nouns goes with which of those verbs? It's ambiguous, you can't really tell which is which.
And the right to bear arms that the founders imagined was very different from the right to bear arms today.
Firearms were very different in terms of their usefulness - against crime.
- Right.
And they thought of the Second Amendment primarily in terms of a militia, but that doesn't mean it's not an individual right.
All of the provisions of the Bill of Rights guarantee individuals their rights.
All right, they were mostly thinking about militias, but it's also an individual right.
So did they believe in an individual right to a militia? I don't quite follow.
No, they believed in an individual right to keep and bear arms, and the primary reason why you needed that right is so you could serve in a state militia.
- Oh.
- The founding fathers didn't have a standing army.
They thought that was a threat to liberty.
So they relied on citizens' militias made up of minutemen who would go home, grab their guns, and be ready to fight in an instant for national defense.
So, you have to be able to own a gun so you can go join up with the militia whenever they ring the militia bell.
Yeah, and the founders were concerned that the federal government would try to disarm the state militias.
So, I can remember a time Like, when I was growing up in the '90s, there was a debate about the Second Amendment.
Some people said, Oh, it guarantees an individual right, and then it felt like the majority of people were saying, No, no, no, this is about militias.
Feels like things have shifted even in the time I've been alive, and I'm a relatively young guy.
Yeah, I think that part of the way the Constitution works is that we have advocacy groups and social movements that push for a new understanding of even an ancient right.
The NRA's leadership in the early 1970s was pretty moderate and favored a variety of gun control laws.
The NRA, after 1977, really committed to hard-hitting political advocacy.
It wanted to fight against gun control laws and push for a broader, more expansive understanding of the Second Amendment.
It was a time of rising crime rates, and people really felt the need to have a firearm for personal protection.
So, if you would speak to folks at home who are gun control advocates, how would you suggest they go about pressing their case in America? I think it should be empowering to all Americans, including gun control advocates, that if you fight hard enough, and if you make persuasive enough claims, you can change the law, that there's nothing inexorable about how the Supreme Court is going to read - the Constitution.
- Right.
And even today, the Supreme Court has said there's plenty of room for gun control under the Constitution.
I very much appreciate you coming here - to talk to us about it.
- It's been my pleasure.
Turkey, green bean casserole Gosh darnit, this family just makes me feel like I'm the richest man on Earth.
And it would not be a Donnerman family Thanksgiving without Eva's yams.
Aww thanks, Mr.
Donnerman.
I'm so thankful that we could do a family Thanksgiving this year.
I'm thankful the two of you made it here safe, what with all the maniacs out in the world these days.
Okay, Dad.
Well, I'm just saying, there's a reason every time I leave the house, I'm carrying.
Right, your gun.
That's your answer to everything.
Sarah, not now.
No, he needs to get it.
This country is in desperate need of common sense gun control.
Oh, I get it, all right.
You wanna take away my rights to my guns It doesn't matter how much you like guns.
which the founding fathers gave me.
We need to talk about this country's gun problem.
You're right, we do.
But neither of you know as much about gun violence in America as you think you do.
Who's this tur-dork-en? Okay, just for that, I'm startin' with you.
Hi, I'm Adam Conover.
Hi, Adam! I'm Doris! And this is "Adam Ruins Everything.
" Closed Captions Provided by truTV Ew.
You're here to tell him he's wrong about his precious gun rights, right? He is obviously here to tell you that gun control is unconstitutional.
Nope, I'm not here to tell either of you what you want to hear.
Both of you are gonna have your beliefs challenged today.
But how you can tell me that we don't need basic common-sense gun control? I mean, we have to put an end to all these mass shootings.
Look, I am not gonna downplay the fact that mass shootings are terrible, all-too-frequent tragedies.
But the hard truth is, they're just the beginning of America's gun violence problem.
And a lot of these common-sense gun control solutions aren't the quick and easy fix you think they are.
Come on, I can think of like a million things we could do right now.
Number one, ban assault weapons.
Yeah, we could do that.
But if your goal is to reduce gun violence, you should know that the biggest guns aren't the biggest problem.
In 2015, shootings with rifles, including assault rifles, made up less 3% of gun homicides in America.
The majority of crimes are committed with handguns.
Enough about assault rifles.
Does anyone want the pepper rifle? - Thank God! - Oh! How can any of you eat right now? Okay, say we did ban sale of some specific types of guns.
It's not like every crime is committed with a brand-new firearm straight from the store.
There are an estimated 300 million guns already in circulation.
Then let's just take them away.
All right, uh, how do you propose we go about that? Yeah, how exactly? Okay, so maybe it's not that easy.
But what if we start by making it voluntary? A buy back? Unfortunately, studies show that when cities and counties hold buy-back programs, they mostly end up getting broken guns people just don't want anymore.
Here, take this one.
It's jammed.
But Australia did a buyback after they had a mass shooting, and mass shootings went down.
So, let's just do whatever they did.
Oh, that would never fly here.
That's not a buyback.
This is a buyback.
Australia passed a federal ban on imports and sales on all automatic and semi-automatic guns.
And we bought back guns people already owned at full market value.
That does make it insanely difficult and costly for you Yanks.
America has 84 times as many guns as Australia.
The biggest reason we can't just copy Australia, is that right now America doesn't have the cultural will to.
Australia doesn't have anything like the Second Amendment - or the NRA.
- Oh, "F" the NRA.
Politicians need to stop taking their dirty gun money.
Actually, that's something many people misunderstand about the NRA.
While it's true that they do spend a ton of money on lobbying, that's not the real source of their influence.
Their real power is their mass membership and their ability to organize.
Every year, a million people receive NRA firearms training.
And for many, even if they're not officially members, the NRA is a way for them to bond with others who share their view that guns hold a sacred place in American culture.
It's kind of like a social network.
Yeah.
I took lessons with that man.
But more importantly, it's also a social movement.
Politicians aren't caving to the NRA because of their money.
It's because they have millions of civically-engaged members who show up to town halls and who vote.
Hey, Dan, after bowling, 100 of us are gonna head over to see that congressman tryin' to implement that new gun control policy, give him a piece of our mind! Dad, you cannot be friends with these gun nuts! Man, are you guys ready to eat yet? No.
Sarah, you might think that what the NRA is fighting for is wrong.
Well, you're not alone.
66% of Americans support stronger gun control laws.
But focusing only on the NRA's lobbying money is a big mistake.
They're passionate, they're organized, and right now, there is no comparable anti-gun organization that has their levels of mass membership or engagement.
Well, why isn't there? We shouldn't have to live in a world where we're afraid to go to concerts and kids don't even feel safe going to school.
I am with you on that.
And this is gonna be hard to hear, but it is the most important misconception about guns that we need to correct.
Mass shootings may get all the media attention, but they're just a small part of the story of gun violence in America.
Got that right.
According to one estimate, in the last 50 years, about 1,100 people have been killed in mass shootings.
But 93 people die of gun violence every day.
That means that we have more gun deaths every 12 days than all the mass shootings in recent U.
S.
history combined.
Around 60% of America's gun deaths are from suicides.
The rest are largely urban violence and accidents.
Doesn't all that just show we have to do something? Absolutely.
But the fact is, America already has 300 million guns in circulation, and they aren't just gonna disappear overnight.
If we really want to reduce gun violence, we have to understand that the right solutions aren't always the ones that seem the most basic or common-sense.
And focusing on the wrong solutions is just gonna distract us from finding the right ones.
Well said.
Gun control's a pipe dream.
Oh, not at all, Dan! We have strong evidence that some gun control measures do reduce gun deaths.
Child access prevention laws, certain background checks.
I don't think the founding fathers would like that.
There's a reason we have a Second Amendment, you know.
Oh, the founding fathers didn't nearly intend Blue, 42.
Set shotgun! You can't even go five seconds without yelling about guns? I will not stand here and allow you to besmirch the Second Amendment rights - given to us by our founding fath - Blitz! Actually it's pretty unlikely the founding fathers were thinking about your individual right to own a gun.
That interpretation of the Second Amendment is actually quite recent.
Yay, homerun! Nope, we're going to watch the parade.
There's compelling evidence that the founding fathers' attitude towards guns was less like this Citizens have a God-given right to pack all the heat - they can handle.
- Hut-hut, sign! and more like this.
Okay, let's see.
We have freedom of speech, freedom of religion.
Oh, and we have to guarantee the states' rights to maintain a militia.
Oh, you mean how at this point in history, 1789, every state has its own part-time conscripted army? Yeah, we're gonna want to keep those around.
The state's right to bear arms is what protects us from federal government overreach! Are you sure that's all they meant by bear arms? Maybe they were talking about the individual's right to defend himself and his home.
Well, that's pretty unlikely because guns at the time were completely impractical for self-defense.
They were difficult to load quickly, and gunpowder was super dangerous.
I brought my gun just in case.
No, you idiot! Historians still disagree about the founders' intent.
But a search of all the writings of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton, and Franklin for the phrase "bear arms" revealed they only used that phrase in a military context, and that's how Americans understood the amendment for a long time.
For over 200 years, the U.
S.
Supreme Court declined to rule that the Second Amendment had anything to do with individual gun rights.
Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! I have a constitutional right to Flag on the play! The Supreme Court will not rule on this issue! Oh, come on! Are you blind, ref?! Where the was the NRA when all this was going down? Well, they were pretty different back then.
When the National Rifle Association was founded after the Civil War, they weren't heartland warriors.
They were genteel cultured aristocrats focused on improving Yankee marksmanship.
Oh, yoo-hoo, boys in blue.
You have embarrassed us in front of the South! You're all in dire need of shooting lessons! But they didn't believe that everyone should own a gun.
In fact, during the '20s and '30s, the NRA even supported some gun control measures.
Gosh darnit, where's the NRA that I know and love? Oh, they didn't show up until the '60s and '70s.
A new faction of NRA members wanted the organization to be more hardcore about gun rights.
So, in 1977, they overthrew the leadership in a dramatic coup known as the Revolt at Cincinnati.
You'll have to pry my guns from my cold, dead hand! And this new NRA led a decades-long battle to change our understanding of the Second Amendment.
They sponsored law reviews, they gained allies in the legal community, and they helped seat gun-friendly judges all the way up to the Supreme Court.
Slowly, but surely, public opinion began to change.
And in the 2008 case, DC versus Heller, they finally got what they wanted.
For the first time in history, the court will rule on this issue.
The Second Amendment in fact does defend an individual right to bear arms.
What?! They can't just change what the Constitution means.
Actually, they can.
And it was all perfectly legal.
This is Adam Winkler, a law professor at UCLA whose scholarship has been cited in landmark Supreme Court cases.
Hope you guys don't mind I invited a guest.
Adam, I thought you had a plus-one.
Anyway, the NRA's campaign changed our society and our legal culture's understanding of what the Second Amendment means.
Agree or not, the NRA's campaign was totally legal, and it worked.
Well, okay! That means that now, gun control is unconstitutional and un-American.
No, no, no.
Gun control is as much a part of our history as gun rights.
And in fact, the founding fathers had gun control laws.
And in the Heller ruling, conservative justice Antonin Scalia made crystal clear that most forms of gun control remain constitutionally permissible.
So, Dan, yes, the NRA won.
But that doesn't mean that all forms of gun control are unconstitutional.
And it doesn't mean that we can use myths about the founding fathers' intentions to shout down people who are working to stop gun violence.
Well, if you and your professor friend are all done with your speeches, I'd like to go eat.
You know, Dan, if you believe in gun rights, then you should know that not everybody in this country gets to exercise them.
- Where I grew up - Eva, please, enough.
I heard the pointy-haired man already.
Dad! Listen to her! Thanks to your rights, we can't even feel safe in our own neighborhood.
No, I'm not just talking about our neighborhood.
Well, any neighborhood.
Gun control keeps everyone safe.
- You don't even - No, actually historically, I mean You know what, I think I've had enough Donnerman family tradition for one day.
I'm gonna hit the pre-Black Friday sales.
I think I might know what she was trying to tell you guys.
I think it's a little awkward that I'm still here.
I'm gonna go.
Why did Eva get all upset and just leave? Gun control keeps everyone safe.
Or maybe she understands that we can't protect people from bad guys with guns if we don't have good guys with guns.
Uh, my guess is she's upset because gun control conversations in America are always centered around what makes white people feel safe.
All too often, black people are left completely out of the conversation.
I'm leaving black people out? My wife is black Oh, no, I just became one of those people.
Afraid so.
And I'm afraid that historically, gun control has been used to control and criminalize people of color.
In the early years of our country, many colonies and states had laws barring Native Americans and free black people from buying or owning guns.
What? But I have a receipt.
And racist fears of black people have continued to inform our gun control laws.
In 1960s California, the Black Panthers resisted police violence in Oakland by patrolling the city with guns.
We have a right to protect our communities against police officers abusing their power.
Defending yourself against a tyrannical government, I'm all about that.
Well, state lawmakers responded by passing a bill that banned open carry.
The bill applied to all Californians but it was meant to blatantly target the Black Panthers.
And that bill was signed by then California governor and NRA member, Ronald Reagan.
I'm just not comfortable with certain people carrying guns.
For, uh reasons.
- Oh - Eva.
Oh! Babe, I'm so sorry.
I had no idea gun control used to be so racist.
Is that what you told her? Well, I wasn't done.
So, not my responsibility to teach white people they own racist ass history.
All right, white Urkel, I'll take it from here.
Please do.
And thanks for the compliment.
Sarah, even today a lot of gun control laws really end up being about controlling black people.
In the mid-2000s, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms performed 10 years of stings to combat gun crime.
A full analysis found that 91% of people arrested were people of color.
And we're not just talking about the red states.
For years, New York City had an official policy to stop black and brown people on the street just to see if they might have guns or drugs.
Stop! Sir, you're in a public place and you look you know, dangerous.
What? Oh.
Sir? Records show that these stops almost never found guns.
Between '04 and 2012, 4.
4 million people were stopped, but only 1.
5% of them had weapons.
Men in my family have gotten jaywalking tickets from the NYPD after they didn't find anything in the stop and frisk.
They weren't stopping criminals, they were just stopping black people.
Eva, I'm sorry.
I had no idea.
You've never talked about it.
It's not her responsibility to talk about it, it's our responsibility as a country.
This is James Forman, Jr.
, Pulitzer Prize winner and author of the book "Locking Up Our Own.
" There's a connection between the overly punitive gun sentencing laws that were passed in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s and the current crisis of mass incarceration.
Instead of national gun control laws that could stop the flood of available guns, we have local laws that penalize possession.
And those laws are mostly passed in cities.
So, the result is that guns are everywhere, violence is rampant, and the only people who go to prison for possessing guns are poor people of color in our nation's cities.
Black people face the highest rates of deaths by guns.
But instead of protecting the families and neighborhoods who face the most gun violence, our current gun laws just double down on destroying them.
And that's why we shouldn't talk about new gun penalties without first talking about how we transform our criminal legal system.
All right, Adam, I got to get to my Thanksgiving dinner.
Well, I think we all learned a valuable lesson about gun control.
No, Dan.
There's something you need to realize too.
Gun rights don't protect black people either.
Take the stand your ground law the NRA pushed legislators to pass in Florida.
It says use of deadly force is justified to defend yourself in your home or car even if you can run away.
But in practice, not everyone gets to use it.
Marissa Alexander was sentenced to 20 years in prison just for firing a warning shot to defend herself against her abusive husband.
Stand your ground didn't help her.
Or look at what happened to Philando Castile.
During a routine traffic pullover, he informed the police officer that he had his gun on him.
And the cop shot and killed him in front of his girlfriend and her four-year-old daughter.
But I drive with my weapon every day.
That's not against the law.
Okay, so imagine I'm a police officer pulling you over and you're Philando Castile.
Do you have your license and insurance? Yes, officer, I do have to tell you I do have a firearm on me.
Okay, don't reach for it then.
- I'm I'm - Don't pull it out.
- I'm not pulling it out.
- He's not pulling it out.
- Don't pull it out.
- Bang! That is the exact moment Philando Castile was shot.
He did everything that responsible gun owners are supposed to do.
And the NRA didn't come to his defense.
For all their talk about protecting gun rights, they sure are quiet when black people are gunned down for exercising them.
So, Dan, I'm frustrated because black people are in jail or dead for exercising gun rights that you enjoy so freely.
And, Sarah, I'm hurt because, as my partner, you don't see that the gun control you have the privilege to fight for ignores the systemic persecution that I live in fear of every single day.
I'm gonna head back.
Wait.
Do you want a ride? Hey.
Hey.
Since you guys didn't let us eat dinner, Doris said we should just skip straight to pie.
Eva, I am so sorry.
My dad is too.
We didn't mean to upset you.
I appreciate that, but I don't want want you guys to just be sorry I was upset.
I want you to remember that for people that haven't had your experience in this country, that there is way more at stake in this gun debate.
We need a voice.
And you need to listen.
And, if I may add, if America is going to have the inclusive and effective conversation about guns that we so desperately need, we all need to admit that none of us knows enough yet to have all the answers.
So we need to be allowed to do more research.
That's right, Adam.
This is Doctor Garen Wintemute.
He is the director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at UC Davis.
We spend so much energy and political will fighting over whether or not America should have all these guns When the fact is: we do have them.
It's our reality.
That being the case, we need to start researching firearm violence as a public health problem.
But politics is getting in the way of funding that kind of research on the national level where it could really make a difference.
The NRA sees any form of research on guns as a threat, even when it's information that gun owners could really benefit from knowing.
We know, in general, that the more guns there are, the more people get hurt from gun violence.
But we don't know nearly enough about the risk factors for that violence, or the consequences for the victims, or even the effectiveness of specific policies, including policies that most Americans agree on like background checks.
Look, ultimately, we all want the same thing: to feel safe.
So, instead of shouting each other down, we need to have productive, rational conversations based on facts.
Can't we all at least agree on that? I can.
Yeah, me too.
And we shouldn't stop talking and listening as a country, but we can at least stop fighting about this tonight.
Huh, when you think about it, I didn't ruin Thanksgiving at all.
You guys kinda did.
Geez, man.
Learn how to read a room.
This might jiggle.
It's all fine.
And we have a nice breeze so it's all good.
Oh, my gosh.
Well, Adam, thank you so much for being on the show.
It was great having you.
- Thanks so much for having me.
- How did you start getting into this topic in the first place? Well, I'm a constitutional law professor at UCLA.
And the Second Amendment was an area that seemed very ambiguous.
What did that mean? And when I researched it, I found that the story of guns in America was much more complicated than the story the NRA has been selling us for so long.
That's so interesting that there's this line in our founding document that we can't even decide what, exactly, was meant by it.
That's so strange.
Well, the Second Amendment has all these commas in it, and it doesn't really make a lot of sense as a sentence.
- Right.
- But yet, it does capture a principle, a principle that we, the people, have a right of self-defense.
Can you walk me through where the commas are? Sure.
The Second Amendment says Comma.
And it's almost as if James Madison, the author of this provision, had just discovered this wonderful new thing, the comma.
And wanted to put it in there as many times as possible.
Which one of those nouns goes with which of those verbs? It's ambiguous, you can't really tell which is which.
And the right to bear arms that the founders imagined was very different from the right to bear arms today.
Firearms were very different in terms of their usefulness - against crime.
- Right.
And they thought of the Second Amendment primarily in terms of a militia, but that doesn't mean it's not an individual right.
All of the provisions of the Bill of Rights guarantee individuals their rights.
All right, they were mostly thinking about militias, but it's also an individual right.
So did they believe in an individual right to a militia? I don't quite follow.
No, they believed in an individual right to keep and bear arms, and the primary reason why you needed that right is so you could serve in a state militia.
- Oh.
- The founding fathers didn't have a standing army.
They thought that was a threat to liberty.
So they relied on citizens' militias made up of minutemen who would go home, grab their guns, and be ready to fight in an instant for national defense.
So, you have to be able to own a gun so you can go join up with the militia whenever they ring the militia bell.
Yeah, and the founders were concerned that the federal government would try to disarm the state militias.
So, I can remember a time Like, when I was growing up in the '90s, there was a debate about the Second Amendment.
Some people said, Oh, it guarantees an individual right, and then it felt like the majority of people were saying, No, no, no, this is about militias.
Feels like things have shifted even in the time I've been alive, and I'm a relatively young guy.
Yeah, I think that part of the way the Constitution works is that we have advocacy groups and social movements that push for a new understanding of even an ancient right.
The NRA's leadership in the early 1970s was pretty moderate and favored a variety of gun control laws.
The NRA, after 1977, really committed to hard-hitting political advocacy.
It wanted to fight against gun control laws and push for a broader, more expansive understanding of the Second Amendment.
It was a time of rising crime rates, and people really felt the need to have a firearm for personal protection.
So, if you would speak to folks at home who are gun control advocates, how would you suggest they go about pressing their case in America? I think it should be empowering to all Americans, including gun control advocates, that if you fight hard enough, and if you make persuasive enough claims, you can change the law, that there's nothing inexorable about how the Supreme Court is going to read - the Constitution.
- Right.
And even today, the Supreme Court has said there's plenty of room for gun control under the Constitution.
I very much appreciate you coming here - to talk to us about it.
- It's been my pleasure.