Piers Morgan's Life Stories (2009) s13e03 Episode Script
John Lydon (aka Johnny Rotten)
1 John Lydon is - part Johnny Rotten and part - sweet, cuddly John Lydon.
And you're never quite sure which one's gonna turn up.
A-ha-ha.
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? He lost his mother very early.
He lost Sid Vicious, his great friend and so he's had a lot of tragedy in his life to deal with.
I'm here for the fun.
Have fun.
I've never gone into an interview fearing there is a high possibility of getting a clump in the face from Johnny Rotten's right fist.
Hello, Piers, nice of you to do the show with me.
Enjoy .
.
or endure.
Hello, Piers, bombs away then, is it? John Lydon, Johnny Rotten, you are a music icon.
You are a cultural icon and you're the only person who's ever come in to one of these interviews clutching a black plastic bag.
Oh, I'm sensible.
I like cheap little bags.
I carry all my stuff around in it and I feel better than a man-bag.
What's in there? Ertoilet roll.
A packet of ciggies.
Yeah.
Go on, have a butchers.
I will have a butchers.
Thank you.
Wait until he sees the underpants! T-shirts, erm Underpants! Erwow! La mer! Creme de la Mer?! I love it.
The most expensive I skin cream in the world? And I didn't have to pay because you lot dedicated that to me.
For not dealing with the make-up department.
Thank you very much.
I keep my keysmy money, my cigarettes.
just things I need.
lt's, like, a practical solution.
Have you always done that? Always carried a bag? Always, yeah.
I don't like designer bags or briefcases or any of that.
It's just convenient.
I was told by the production team, 'John doesn't want any make-up.
No.
'He's fine as he is.
Yeah.
You've rocked up with your bag.
You've stood outside, chain-smoking and you came on.
That's it.
Yes.
The only guest we've ever had that's done that.
Well, you don't need all the rest of the stuff, do you? I don't, anyway.
You have no real vanity, then? No, I come with wrinkles, and all.
There it is! I'm trying to hide the beer belly, though! lt's an extraordinary statistic, but it's 40 years since The Sex Pistols erupted onto social consciousness.
Ah! what do you think of that? I haven't thought about it in terms likeyears.
Only 40?! lt's an amazing length of time.
I remember it vividly.
We became so big, so Quick, that it was too earth-shattering to really deal with sensibly.
Ermwe had no prospects of fame and all of that.
And I think that shows.
That's why the quality of The Sex Pistols is still there.
How did you get the name Johnny Rotten, which is what you've become, obviously, world famous for? Bad teeth.
Absolute.
A touch of National Health Bad teeth.
Absolute.
and a touch of absolute laziness.
I mean, in my childhood, the only time I ever seen a toothbrush used was my dad cleaning his boots.
There was bits missing, all cracked up.
I'd avoid the dentist.
mum and dad had dentures.
So, you know A big childhood memory was their false teeth in glasses.
Oh, and, of course, the Friday nights when the they'd run parties and all the other relatives, all losing their teeth.
I spent half my childhood picking up dentures.
Are these yours, Mummy? Who first called you Rotten? Who gave you the nickname? Steve Jones, cos of the teeth.
A member of the pistols? Yeah.
Was that before the band got together? Was it when you were mates? That was almost immediately, on our first meeting.
'You're rotten, you are.
Well, hello, why not? Did you like the nickname? Did you see the potential for it? I liked it a lot, yeah.
It was not taking yourself too serious.
I guess a lot of people still call you or ref you as Johnny Rotten.
Does that bother you? No, it's a privilege.
And well earned.
That's really neat.
I like it, cos I did no wrong.
Ain't nothing rotten about me.
In 2008, you had your teeth fixed.
I finally had to, because er The problems that came from er This is why I recommend you brush your teeth, everybody.
It ended up costing me something nearly, oh$20,000, right? The damage was so bad that I had holes in the bones from the abscesses.
And I've had practically everything removed and replaced.
They look great now.
But they've obviously But they're not, if you look at them properly, right? Kind of like Some of my mates describe them as car park bollards.
They're, kind of, concrete grey.
I didn't go for that white look.
No.
I wanted them to match the little bit I had left from my youth.
Just to start, though, you're one of the most influential figures in British music.
What is interesting about you, for those who don't know you, is such an eclectic range of musical tastes that you have.
We made a little list here - Mozart, Status Quo, The Bee Gees, Cool And The Gang.
Why Mozart? Requiem.
Absolutely, just love it.
Why, what does it do to you? It just breaks me up inside.
It just hits in all the right emotional places.
lt's the saddest, saddest death dirge.
lt's dedicated to the death of his father.
It's just beautiful.
Insanely excellent.
And so superb because it's not finished.
Which is the answer to death.
What is death? It doesn't have a finish, conclusion.
Perfect, for me.
You go from Mozart to Status Quo.
Quite a leap, musically? I love Status Quo.
Why do you love Quo? My God, what they do with three notes You never liked The Beatles very much? Well, Mum and Dad played them way too much.
You know? And so the prejudice was set in there, I just One more time of that awfulness You're driving through London and Paul McCartney is also there and wants to meet you.
What happens? Oh, that was terrible.
I was with my wife, Nora, and we were going to visit my brother in Tottenham.
And we had to go East Harrods.
And two people come running across the street.
And it's Paul and Linda McCartney.
And they're banging on the cab window.
I put the lock down and turned.
I could not cope with it, it was too much.
This is, you know, a famous person? But this is, like, the most famous person on the planet.
I couldn't handle it.
My shyness took over.
I couldn't handle it.
You just sped off in your cab, leaving the world's number one music superstar with the cab driver going, 'Bleeding hell, I've seen it all now.
" And I had Nora going, 'Why don't you let them in?" You know when things take you, sometimes, by surprise? Bang! It's Paul and Linda! It's a bit much.
I'm told you got, you get, stage fright sometimes, so badly Always.
.
.
you throw up.
Terrible.
Literally, you throw up? I can't eat before a gig.
Can't.
Panic, nerves, fear.
I don't wanna let people down.
Once I get on stage, for instance, there's no shyness at all.
Mr Rotten is full on.
But that's like I was, kind of, made to be that.
But I was made to be this shy person, also.
One works well with the other.
In your 40 years of fame, you've never been afraid to rock the boat.
Hello, poor people.
'John Lydon, rock revolutionary and true great Briton.
' You can't be of my generation and English and not be influenced by John.
You're looking at me.
Now that's naughty! He was mouth almighty.
And he probably still is and he's really good at it.
It's a joke, it's a farce.
John is, and was, an incredibly talented individual.
He's wild.
He's almost like a wild animal.
'As well as storming the music establishment with his bands The Sex Pistols and PIL' There's so many two-bob sods out there that want to sound like me.
.
.
John has also rocked the world of TV.
' I'm a celebrity, get me out of here.
'Giving us reality TV moments' '.
.
and wildlife programmes to remember.
' Did you see the teeth on that? # We're so pretty # Oh so pretty We're vacant 'John first burst onto the scene 40 years ago, as a penniless 19-year-old, when he was chosen as frontman of a revolutionary new band called The Sex Pistols.
' What he had was this powerful way of staring at you and fixing you in his gaze.
I'm going to get inside your soul, I'm gonna change you! 'In 1976, the group released their first single, Anarchy In The UK.
And went on an early evening chat show to publicise it.
' Punk rockers.
The new craze, they tell me.
It's what? Nothing.
A rude word.
Next Question? No, no.
What was the rude word? Shit.
Say something outrageous, then.
You dirty bastard.
Again.
You dirty I'd never heard swearing, like that, live.
Nah-nah-na-nah-nah.
'British youth had new heroes.
' Two days after that, maybe, at school, people had changed their hair.
I started to see pins all over the placezips.
People turning to punk rockers, man.
'The Sex Pistols sent shockwaves through the establishment.
' I think most of these groups would be vastly improved by sudden death.
The worst, currently, are The Sex Pistols and they are the antithesis of human kind.
Terrible, I think it is.
I think it's disgusting.
'Local authorities up and down the country banned The Sex Pistols from playing.
' They couldn't play.
Cancelled, cancelled, cancelled, cancelled.
'Too hot to handle, The Pistols were also dropped by their record label.
Richard Branson's Virgin stepped in.
' The Sex Pistols actually put Virgin on the map.
You thought you'd gotten rid of us, didn't you? But you were wrong, old bean, because we're back.
'All the outrage and attempts to ban The Pistols simply gave them more publicity and boosted record sales.
' # God save the Queen The fascist regime 'The first single with Virgin was God Save The Queen.
Released to coincide with the Silver jubilee in June 1977.
' Released to coincide with # God save the Queen # 'The Royal Flotilla was due to sail the Thames.
So for a publicity stunt, the band organised their own musical boat trip.
It ended when the police brought them into the dock at Westminster and moved in to make arrests.
' 50 police was waiting.
The police! In the end, at the end of the day, just for a little boat trip.
The Police should not have raided the boat.
If it wasn't The Sex Pistols, there'd be no interest in this boat tonight.
' As a result, I think, made the Pistols all-the-more notorious.
'Johnny Rotten, star of The Sex Pistols, was public enemy number one.
' He was the poster boy for it.
The guy who's the rebel.
They guy you wanna be like.
One of the most startling, destructive, brilliant, expressive, creative figures to have emergednot just in Britain, but across the whole world.
It's an absolute tragedy I've ended up something of a genius.
Oh, that's funny! So you wake up and you are public enemy number one.
What's going through your mind? What an achievement! Did you like it? Was it a thrill? Yeah, absolutely.
Normally, I suppose, most people in the world would be very fearful of that.
I loved it.
I thought, you know, if you can't get them all to love you, well, you can go the opposite.
What was the ethos of you and The Pistols at the time, that you think really hit a nerve with the youth? Well, I suppose, we disliked each other so much that that was gonna come out in the music.
And that anger and that resentment and confusion you have as a teenager .
.
well, we have exemplified that.
Did you become a physical target to people who wanted to make a name for themselves? Oh, yeah, yeah.
Lots of attacks.
It became impossible to do what I always loved to do, which is run around on my own and get up to my own situations, because it would begangs.
What would they do to you? Just try and smash me to pieces.
Cut me up.
I got razored a few times.
A bottle put in my head.
Cuts around here from trying to gouge out my eye.
I got a machete ripped through the jeans.
I was lucky, it just stuck on the bit of the knee bone, there.
Could have tore the muscle out.
Really, really extreme violence.
Did it make you - It was nonsense.
'We love our queen.
You know? Well, I never said I didn't, either.
You know? I just don't like the institution.
When the police boarded your jubilee boat they, apparently, uttered the immortal words, they, apparently, 'Where's Johnny Rotten?" Oh, yes.
Do you remember how you responded? I did.
I pointed to Richard Branson! So I'm amazed he was on there tonight, but - hello, well done, Richard.
He still looks like Guy Fawkes? When you see Richard Branson paying tribute to you and saying that the whole Virgin empire, really, was brought up on The Pistols.
What do you think about that? I think he belittles Mike 0ldfield's Tubular Bells.
At the height of your fame, John, you said, At the height of your fame, 'As the, so-called, King of Punk, I was getting almost too much sexual attention, suddenly.
Oh, yeah.
Very shy about that.
I mean, I've always considered myself hideously ugly and deformed.
You know, the hunchback that I had? Can you notice it? Did you start to embrace the groupie culture? Ernot when the camera was on.
You described sex as, 'Two minutes of squelching noises.
Originally, yeah.
That's what ever teenager thinks, isn't it? Have things improved over the years? Yeah.
A few years later, I realised it was five minutes and 30 seconds.
When that memory comes back and it clicks Oh, my God, it's my mum.
How could I have not recognised her? Let's go back to where it all started.
You were born John Joseph Lydon in January 1956.
Your parents were John and Eileen, who were both Irish immigrants and you had three younger brothers - Bobby, Jimmy and Martin.
Martin.
What was life like in the household? Erwell, we only had two rooms.
The toilet was an outdoor one in the back yard which was open to the Public.
What is the reality of living in such cramped conditions when there are so many people there? Closenessis a good thing.
I think it ties you together, far more important than separating.
I think it's a very, very good thing for parents to be in the same room as very young children.
The bond is then forever.
When you were seven years old, you were diagnosed with meningitis.
Do you remember anything about to the build-up to it, or not? Ermintense, serious headaches, thatso severe.
lt's just, absolutely, beyond even screaming in pain or crying.
That was the fluid going into the brain.
I did not know that.
just seven years old, you are getting these terrible headaches.
You go into hospital.
.
? In hospital for a year.
A coma for four months.
Nearly four months, or thereabouts.
And then woke up not knowing who I wasat all.
No memory of anything.
I couldn't even walk or talk or nothing.
Zero.
And yet, inside .
.
I wanted to communicate but physically couldn't.
Ermto be able to come back and find out who I really was Ermto be able to come back I took the next four years.
And I had to completely believe in what every human being was saying to me, in order to find out who I was.
And that stuck with me to this day.
That's why I can't tolerate liars.
I depended on these two strangers telling me the were my parents.
To believe that.
I was a very, very worried kid .
.
between seven, going on eight.
Leaving that hospital, thinking that I was always part of that institution and they were selling me off to two complete strangers.
I had to believe I belonged somewhere.
Right.
But, I mean, terrifying for your parents? I would say, yeah, absolutely.
Andl know I shouldn't feel guilt about it, but when I look back on it, the pain they must have gone through.
You know? Because I knew what I was going through.
I just did not know them.
You wake up - So years later, when that memory comes back and it clicks.
Oh, my God, it's my mum.
How could I have not recognised her? How long did it take you to realise these were your parents? A couple of years, drifting in and out.
My dad took longer.
He seemed to me to be this really nasty, aggressive person.
He wasn't at all.
It was just his gruff way.
He was very young, my dad, when they had me.
Very young.
Did your full memory return, so that you could remember everything? Everything and quite amazing how much of it came back.
Even things that, I suppose, in normal life, I wouldn't have remembered.
lt's an odd thing, the memory, how it can be stolen from you.
But it's always in there, somewhere.
lt's just a matter of unlocking it.
Would you have been the creative, energetic, tour-de-force that you became without that? Idon't know.
But let's say it helps.
I really does.
It strengthens your character.
John, your rise to fame was fast and furious.
I am John and I was born in London 'John grew up on the estates of north London.
And from an early age, liked to look different.
' John stood out like a beacon.
He stood out like a beacon.
Inmore ways than one.
John's dada was very strict.
John wasn't allowed to dye his hair.
He got thrown out, I think, for dying it green.
You look so bloody boring, I think John's mum was a little bit more laid back and chilled.
She also used to knit these mohair jumpers which John wore in the 70's and when The Pistols were famous.
John and his mum were very, very, very, very close.
He loved his mum and she loved him.
'As frontman of The Sex Pistols, John, along with his best mate John Simon Ritchie, known as Sid Vicious, created a whole new iconic look.
' I would get t-shirts and I would buy zips, and I'd sow two of the zips into the t-shirt and then cut them.
Safety pins in the ears.
what is your dress made from? A plastic bin liner.
It was like a party atmosphere but with the sinister undertone because he was going to be the ringmaster.
Don't care 'The Pistols' scary image and notoriety meant no venues would book them for gigs.
So at the beginning of 1978, manager Malcolm McLaren took them to America.
' To me, it seemed really odd that they did an American tourat all.
I think that they're sickening and disgusting.
They went to Texas, they went to the Longhorn Ballroom.
They went to places no-one's seen anyone with dodgy hair.
You've gotta have a pair of nuts to go down there and play in them gaffs.
'And backstage, tensions were high.
John was arguing with Malcolm McLaren and best friend Sid, who had a heroin addiction.
' John had had enough of Malcolm and just, I think, couldn't stand continuing with him any more.
You'll get one number and one number only, because I am a lazy bastard.
'The band's gig in San Francisco on 4th January 1978, was to be John's final performance with The Sex Pistols.
' Oh, bollocks, Why should I carry on? Ah-ha-ha.
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? He'd had enough.
You could see that.
You watch footage of it, he'd had enough.
You split up with the Pistols, how are you occupying your time? Boringly.
Would you like to start another band? 'Within six months of leaving The Pistols, John was back, 'with his new band Public Image Limited.
Also known as PIL.
' After the break-up of The Sex Pistols, you did get excited about what John Lydon was going to do next.
Punk had dried up, musically, so you wanted something strange and peculiar and unexpected.
And he did it.
He invented a new kind of way of making music.
Public enemy 'But as their first single hit the top ten, John was dealing with tragedy in his private life.
His mother, Eileen, had been diagnosed with terminal cancer.
' It was awful, it was awful, because his mum was so special.
You know what I mean? 'She passed away in November 1978, at the age of just 46.
' John was a bit of a mummy's boy.
So I think it was quite a difficult period when she passed.
'Then, just over two months later, John suffered another terrible blow.
' Rock star Sid Vicious is dead, after taking an overdose of heroin last night.
It was a dark period for John, but there was, funny enough, in it, as always, there was humour in that, you know? We had a mate working the film game, We had a mate and John got a Load of props and he turned the room into, like, Highgate Cemetery.
Really! And slept in it like that.
But it was like, literally, living in a crypt.
His mum had died.
Sid Vicious is dead.
You know, there's this huge comedown off the insane mountain top that was the Sex Pistols.
He had to keep going, you know? He couldn't stop.
So sometimes, he was running on empty.
You were just 22 years old, though, and you've just lost your mother You were just 22 years old, though, and your close friendSid.
I want to talk, first of all, about your mum.
Did you feel cheated that you lost her so young? Did you feel angry? What were your emotions at the time? It's the worst thing in the world, to visit, I suppose, anybody you know in any way at all.
When it's as close as a parent, to hear them say, 'I'm going to fight this, I'm going to beat this.
It'soh! You mean, knowing that the chances are they can't? Inevitable.
Yeahand to know she was dying in such pain.
just such pain and didn't want the painkillers because they make you lose your mind.
Your dad died in 2008, so he saw your career develop and all the twists and turns.
Did he go from being terrified by what he saw, to enjoying the ride in the end? But my dad was an absolute teaser.
So his way would always be, Why don't you just write a hit single, Johnny? Knowing that that would annoy the hell out of me.
lt's odd.
It was only towards the end of his life, that I sussed his humour and just how funny it was.
Very dry.
I always thought he was just nasty and it's not, at all.
There was a great sense of wit in him.
And I tell you, I see it in myself, sometimes, I say things and I realise, that's my dad, there, talking.
Let's turn to Sid Vicious.
He died of a heroin overdose on 2nd February 1979.
Inevitable.
Sid was my mate and all that, but I watched him slowly destroy himself, so I've got to be honest.
It came as no surprise.
It wasn't overwhelmingly catastrophic.
because he killed himself, as indeed most people who mess about with heroin they lose their souls, way, way, way earlier.
It's just waiting for the body to finally keel over.
Sid had been accused of murdering his girlfriend, Nancy.
Yeah.
What was your reaction to that? Impossible to believe, As it's No, he's just not a violent person.
Sidney couldn't fight his way out of a crisp bag.
Poor thing.
lt's Maybe the heroin? I don't know.
But I couldn't imagine him killing his girlfriend for any particular reason.
What do you think probably happened? I think they had a bit of a problem with the drug dealers and owed far too much money.
Which is a much more likely scenario.
Were you ever big into the drug scene, or not? No, anything that keeps me awake is fine, but no kind of drug that has any suppressant or downer in it.
lt's erm To this day, I have troubles going to sleep at night.
I'll fight to the bitter end, until I, quite literally, pass out, because I've always still of that thing, I might wake up and not remember who I am.
That's You still live with that fear? Oh, yeah.
There's nothing worse than that.
To absolutely not belong to anybody.
That's the ultimate pain.
This might be the most damning allegation so far, that you're a lovely, nice person.
Tell me about style.
What's been your favourite look, of all of them, over the years? I quite like the ginger look when I was in The Pistols.
It was called Golden Chestnut and they don't make it any more.
I just like the shock of it.
Cos I liked conkers and I liked playing conkers, so it reminded me of that.
Your dad, apparently, said you looked like a Brussels sprout? Yeah, that was the green.
That was the final straw.
Get your hair cut! So off I went and had it dyed bright green.
You look like a Brussels sprout! You look ' And that was it.
Out I went.
The punk look, as defined by The Pistols, was clothes held together by safety pins.
Was it deliberate, or was it just a sort of accident? No.
lt's what you have to do.
Your jumper is falling apart, you've got to keep it on, it's cold.
And I quite like the look of it and I thought, "Well, if I put a few together, that's, kind of like, a cheap version of armouror chain mail.
And one thing leads to another.
I do have a visual touch with it.
I am aware of it creating an imagery.
I have always loved what clothes can do.
You were once admitted to hospital because of a certain item of clothing? Oh, God, yeah.
Walthamstow.
I bought one of these things out of Vivienne Westwood's shop.
It was a skin-tight polar neck, rubber jumper thing.
Right? And up I trot on stage, doing my Sex Pistols bit.
And, I think, a song and a half later, I dehydrated so quickly that I passed out and had to be cut out of it.
That really annoyed meand I used safety pins to put it back together.
John, music hasn't been the only passion in your life.
'As the 1980s dawned, John was taking on new musical challenges.
' # Could be wrong # I could be right PIL, for John, is probably the thing that I think he is most proud of.
Post Sex Pistols, it was his opportunity to be as creative as he possibly could be.
We ain't no band, we're a company.
It's simple.
Nothing to do with rock and roll.
PIL were much moreexperimental and ahead of the time.
Hate it or love it.
It doesn't matter.
It was the whole way, you know, the combination of sounds.
The studio, electronics.
Avant garde influences.
It's still innovative when you play it today.
It's fresh.
'John had also met and fallen in love with a German woman, Nora Forster.
' just inside and out, Nora has always been a beautiful woman.
Do you know what I mean? They've got such a close relationship.
He absolutely worships her.
They are meant for each other, them two.
'Nora moved with John to the US to set up a new life in LA.
' This is not a love song The extremes of The United States Of America appeals to him, you know? And the, sort of, absurdity of the culture.
John lives in a really cool part of LA, where it's just very eccentric millionaires.
Somewhere where someone like Johnny Lydon can walk around and not really be noticed.
He and Nora lead a very private life.
They are an extraordinary couple.
Don't you find it ironic, that they've been together for nearly 35 years, absolutely devoted to each other, and yet his image is anti-establishment? He has always challenged convention and yet, secretly, he's very conventional.
I think that's probably the shocking truth, that he's actually a very normal, unusually sensitive, highly-creative, nice, loving person.
He is lovely, yeah, he is nice.
He makes out he's not.
No, he's lovely.
I mean, this might be the most damning allegation so far, that you're a lovely, nice person.
I think I'm completely misunderstood.
Listen, absolutely loving your partner, it doesn't make you conventional oran anarchist or anything at all.
That's the reality for me.
I love the people I work with.
l love the peoplemy family members.
And I particularly love Nora.
We are just made in heaven.
We are so awkwardly different.
lt's the best person in the world I've ever known.
Where did you meet Nora? Erl think it might have been a Sex Pistols gig and she was told terrible things about me and that, absolutely, drew her straight to me And we had a huge row.
And from that .
.
we ended up slinging insults and burst out into laughter.
And that's how our life has been, ever since.
We have really volatile moments and then just can't keep up the negative momentum because there's so much more going on.
What did your dad say when you first took her home.
Do you remember? Oh, my God, Johnny, she's old enough to be going out with me! He did! Fancy your chances, Daddy? She is 14 years older than you? Yeah.
Does that matter? Has it ever mattered? Not at all.
Have you ever noticed the age difference? No.
You're a toy boy, basically? I love it.
Are you a bit of an old softy behind closed doors? Are you a romantic? I'm a complete huggy bunny.
Are you? Yeah, I am.
Yeah.
A huggy bunny? Yeah.
A word I'd never thought I'd use about you.
Are you romantic? Do you do romantic things? Very romanticbut not in the way you'd think.
lt's not flowers on deliberate occasions.
It would be a spur-of-the-moment kind of thing.
Like what? WellNora, at the moment, you can't buy tights in LA, so I'm gonna go to Harrods tomorrow and get her a few pairs! But that is a very romantic thing to do.
Well, there's a necessity, so I meet the need.
That's how we are.
You and Nora had an extraordinarily fortunate escape, from certain death.
Tell me about that.
Pan AM.
Yes, the Lockerbie flight.
We were booked on to that.
And I've always moaned to Nora, because she can be so slow on timing.
She's always late for everything and she hadn't packed the case.
And erit was obvious we were gonna miss the flight.
So we just thought, we'll fly out the next morning and didn't bother to tell anyone.
And then, of course, we went back to bed, being what we are.
Ermand then everybody presumed we were dead, because the Lockerbie flight went down.
What is the secret, John, of a long-lasting relationship? Never mind marriage, just a relationship, do you think? Really, seriously good, open rows.
Really? Yes.
Say everything.
Throw it all out and then have a great sense of humourabout being wrong.
Well, I'm still here and the rest of them, what are still alive, nice bit of jail time for them.
Jail time! What has completely turned left-field here, an unbroadcast section of a BBC radio interview you did in 1978 recently came to light.
Included on a PIL album.
And you talked about making a film where you kill famous people.
This has never been played on television before, but it has a particular relevance.
Let's listen to this.
So who else is on the goner list?' ' 'oh, it's endless.
Believe me.
I just wanna make a film of it.
On film.
I'd like to kill Jimmy Savile.
I think he's a hypocrite.
' Weren't I right! 'He's into all kinds of seediness, that we all know about, we're not allowed to talk about.
I know some rumours.
I bet none of this will be allowed out.
' 'I shouldn't imagine libellous stuff will be allowed out.
' 'Nothing I said is libel.
' Sounds a bit harsh, doing a death list there! Sometimes you are contentious in life, just because you're bored of that current moment.
But put aside the rhetoric you were using, the fact that in 1978, at the height of The Sex Pistols' explosion, there you are, saying about jimmy Savile, 'He was into all kinds of seediness that we all knew about, but weren't allowed to talk about it.
I know some rumours.
So you had heard the kind of thing that we now know about him, or stuff like that? Yeah.
I think most kids did, too.
Most kids wanted to go to Top Of The Pops, but we all knew what that cigar-muncher was up to.
But I'm very, very bitter that the likes of Savile and the rest of them were allowed to continue.
Did you ever try and do anything about Savile? I did my bit, I said what I had to.
Did they air that? No.
It just got suppressed? Yeah.
For legal reasons? Yeah.
I found myself being banned from BBC radio, there, for quite a while.
For my contentious behaviour.
Because of that interview? They wouldn't state this directly.
It would be other excuses.
It's shocking! He got away with it for another 30 years.
Not only him, a whole bunch of them.
And these are the purveyors of good taste, huh? You were too offensive? Brilliant, isn't it! Well, I'm still here and the rest of them, what are still alive, nice bit of jail time for them.
Jail time! I have to read this.
The BBC has said it's appalled by Savile's crimes and that the Dame Janet Smith review is considering the culture and practices of the BBC during that period.
John Lydon, your public image has taken you from the stage, to the jungle, with a bit of butter thrown in for good measure.
Just peaceor peace off! 'As he turned 40, John was as anarchic as ever.
' He's created a life for himself where he can do what he wants to do.
He doesn't give a shit what you think.
If you don't like it, sod off.
'By the mid '90s, aspects of John's life were coming full circle.
The Sex Pistols reformed for a reunion tour.
' Hello, my name is John.
I'm here to represent The Sex Pistols, the band I used to be in and still am when it suits me.
You're only 29 I think he has an urge as a musician, probably, to make music and tour and create.
I think, sometimes, it's put into bed a lot of stuff that's, kind of, needed to be resolved.
'Screen stardom also beckoned.
John's appearance on I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here had more than ten million people tuning in.
' Every now and again, Johnny Rotten would pop out and try and blow his nose with no handkerchief.
Do you have to do that, John? Do you have to do that? And then he'd become this lovely, quite sophisticated, deep-thinking guy again.
God's got a lot to answer for, but he's got a lot to be appreciated for too.
Look at me, I'm so at one with nature.
People out there, who didn't know much about John, who didn't know much about the music he was in and stuff like that, got to know a little bit more about John as a person.
'John's new mainstream popularity led to TV presenting roles.
' You keep that camera pointed there, right? You keep that camera I'm an ugly old sod, but, you know, what you're about to see is a proper set of dentures.
just when you think you know what he's gonna do, he'll do something completely different.
Do I buy Country Life butter because it's British? 'And there were advertising contracts.
' And there's the voice of the revolution, you know, advertising butter in the mosthilarious way.
People could say, "Oh, he's selling out" You know what I mean? Butthe message I got from it is, If Johnny Lydon says this butters nice, then it's nice.
'With the money he made from his media commitments, John re-launched his band PIL.
' I want the trouble trouble trouble on the double double double - 'Now John and PIL are back in the studio with a single, Double Trouble, from the new album - What The World Needs Now.
' I think PIL continues to, sort of, evolve, in a way.
I think, in some ways, in some of the reformings of PIL, he's had such, such fantastic musicians, that it's actually got better.
The music's got better.
He's built a very solid career over many years, producingproducing great music.
You cannot refute how original he is.
When you see him perform, It's not just about music.
You see what it means to a lot of people.
I've been dreaming in the Garden Of Eden They are so passionate about what he means.
Because he's probably done so much for a generation.
so it's almost like he's their voice.
Everybody knows John, everybody knows John.
Valour to the end, you know? Much I love, much I love.
Ah, Reggie.
Do you think that PIL is producing, as someone suggested there, ever-better music, because of the quality of the musicians you have involved? Yeah.
Well, they became quality acts because we endured so long.
I mean, You're bound to improve.
I did that myself.
I think I'm a hell of a lot further down the field now, because I didn't give up, I kept at it.
because I didn't give up, What's next for PIL A newer album after this new album.
What we do, we find it works very well, we make the money by touring, and that money we've made then goes into recording, ' and then the cycle continues.
lt's very healthy that way.
Do you still feel slightly anarchic? I don't suppose I ever did.
I don't understand anarchy in that way, because it seems to be to me, mind games for the middle class.
So you're not really an anarchist, are you? I don't believe in anarchy for the sake of it.
No, because You're just, ultimately, Just destroying something with nothing to replace it.
That's just sheer spite and destruction.
And also, when I see anarchists, I'm appalled.
You go to these anarchist marches, they're all wearing designer boots, trousers, rucksacks, cell phones and they fly around the country on corporate airlines to do it.
They're a disgrace to anarchists, aren't they? They absolutely are.
And I don't like anything that offers a negative to other human beings.
I don't find that to be very useful.
Anarchyit's irony.
I'm either pretty or vacant.
What would your message be to those pseudo-anarchists who preach the violence and everything else? Have yourself filmed and show it to your mums and dads.
See how smug you feel then! How would you like to be remembered? Er I don't know if I want a grave or any of that, or a tombstone.
I thinkthe best and most decent thing I could do, would be to donate my body to Well, anybody that wants a spare part.
Queue up for the Johnny Rotten body parts.
Yes.
I wouldn't recommend you buy the penis.
I will er I will have your teeth if it comes to it.
There aren't none left! John, it's been fantastic, talking to you.
Thank you for having us.
Now I can rush off to the toilet! John Lydon.
Peace.
And you're never quite sure which one's gonna turn up.
A-ha-ha.
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? He lost his mother very early.
He lost Sid Vicious, his great friend and so he's had a lot of tragedy in his life to deal with.
I'm here for the fun.
Have fun.
I've never gone into an interview fearing there is a high possibility of getting a clump in the face from Johnny Rotten's right fist.
Hello, Piers, nice of you to do the show with me.
Enjoy .
.
or endure.
Hello, Piers, bombs away then, is it? John Lydon, Johnny Rotten, you are a music icon.
You are a cultural icon and you're the only person who's ever come in to one of these interviews clutching a black plastic bag.
Oh, I'm sensible.
I like cheap little bags.
I carry all my stuff around in it and I feel better than a man-bag.
What's in there? Ertoilet roll.
A packet of ciggies.
Yeah.
Go on, have a butchers.
I will have a butchers.
Thank you.
Wait until he sees the underpants! T-shirts, erm Underpants! Erwow! La mer! Creme de la Mer?! I love it.
The most expensive I skin cream in the world? And I didn't have to pay because you lot dedicated that to me.
For not dealing with the make-up department.
Thank you very much.
I keep my keysmy money, my cigarettes.
just things I need.
lt's, like, a practical solution.
Have you always done that? Always carried a bag? Always, yeah.
I don't like designer bags or briefcases or any of that.
It's just convenient.
I was told by the production team, 'John doesn't want any make-up.
No.
'He's fine as he is.
Yeah.
You've rocked up with your bag.
You've stood outside, chain-smoking and you came on.
That's it.
Yes.
The only guest we've ever had that's done that.
Well, you don't need all the rest of the stuff, do you? I don't, anyway.
You have no real vanity, then? No, I come with wrinkles, and all.
There it is! I'm trying to hide the beer belly, though! lt's an extraordinary statistic, but it's 40 years since The Sex Pistols erupted onto social consciousness.
Ah! what do you think of that? I haven't thought about it in terms likeyears.
Only 40?! lt's an amazing length of time.
I remember it vividly.
We became so big, so Quick, that it was too earth-shattering to really deal with sensibly.
Ermwe had no prospects of fame and all of that.
And I think that shows.
That's why the quality of The Sex Pistols is still there.
How did you get the name Johnny Rotten, which is what you've become, obviously, world famous for? Bad teeth.
Absolute.
A touch of National Health Bad teeth.
Absolute.
and a touch of absolute laziness.
I mean, in my childhood, the only time I ever seen a toothbrush used was my dad cleaning his boots.
There was bits missing, all cracked up.
I'd avoid the dentist.
mum and dad had dentures.
So, you know A big childhood memory was their false teeth in glasses.
Oh, and, of course, the Friday nights when the they'd run parties and all the other relatives, all losing their teeth.
I spent half my childhood picking up dentures.
Are these yours, Mummy? Who first called you Rotten? Who gave you the nickname? Steve Jones, cos of the teeth.
A member of the pistols? Yeah.
Was that before the band got together? Was it when you were mates? That was almost immediately, on our first meeting.
'You're rotten, you are.
Well, hello, why not? Did you like the nickname? Did you see the potential for it? I liked it a lot, yeah.
It was not taking yourself too serious.
I guess a lot of people still call you or ref you as Johnny Rotten.
Does that bother you? No, it's a privilege.
And well earned.
That's really neat.
I like it, cos I did no wrong.
Ain't nothing rotten about me.
In 2008, you had your teeth fixed.
I finally had to, because er The problems that came from er This is why I recommend you brush your teeth, everybody.
It ended up costing me something nearly, oh$20,000, right? The damage was so bad that I had holes in the bones from the abscesses.
And I've had practically everything removed and replaced.
They look great now.
But they've obviously But they're not, if you look at them properly, right? Kind of like Some of my mates describe them as car park bollards.
They're, kind of, concrete grey.
I didn't go for that white look.
No.
I wanted them to match the little bit I had left from my youth.
Just to start, though, you're one of the most influential figures in British music.
What is interesting about you, for those who don't know you, is such an eclectic range of musical tastes that you have.
We made a little list here - Mozart, Status Quo, The Bee Gees, Cool And The Gang.
Why Mozart? Requiem.
Absolutely, just love it.
Why, what does it do to you? It just breaks me up inside.
It just hits in all the right emotional places.
lt's the saddest, saddest death dirge.
lt's dedicated to the death of his father.
It's just beautiful.
Insanely excellent.
And so superb because it's not finished.
Which is the answer to death.
What is death? It doesn't have a finish, conclusion.
Perfect, for me.
You go from Mozart to Status Quo.
Quite a leap, musically? I love Status Quo.
Why do you love Quo? My God, what they do with three notes You never liked The Beatles very much? Well, Mum and Dad played them way too much.
You know? And so the prejudice was set in there, I just One more time of that awfulness You're driving through London and Paul McCartney is also there and wants to meet you.
What happens? Oh, that was terrible.
I was with my wife, Nora, and we were going to visit my brother in Tottenham.
And we had to go East Harrods.
And two people come running across the street.
And it's Paul and Linda McCartney.
And they're banging on the cab window.
I put the lock down and turned.
I could not cope with it, it was too much.
This is, you know, a famous person? But this is, like, the most famous person on the planet.
I couldn't handle it.
My shyness took over.
I couldn't handle it.
You just sped off in your cab, leaving the world's number one music superstar with the cab driver going, 'Bleeding hell, I've seen it all now.
" And I had Nora going, 'Why don't you let them in?" You know when things take you, sometimes, by surprise? Bang! It's Paul and Linda! It's a bit much.
I'm told you got, you get, stage fright sometimes, so badly Always.
.
.
you throw up.
Terrible.
Literally, you throw up? I can't eat before a gig.
Can't.
Panic, nerves, fear.
I don't wanna let people down.
Once I get on stage, for instance, there's no shyness at all.
Mr Rotten is full on.
But that's like I was, kind of, made to be that.
But I was made to be this shy person, also.
One works well with the other.
In your 40 years of fame, you've never been afraid to rock the boat.
Hello, poor people.
'John Lydon, rock revolutionary and true great Briton.
' You can't be of my generation and English and not be influenced by John.
You're looking at me.
Now that's naughty! He was mouth almighty.
And he probably still is and he's really good at it.
It's a joke, it's a farce.
John is, and was, an incredibly talented individual.
He's wild.
He's almost like a wild animal.
'As well as storming the music establishment with his bands The Sex Pistols and PIL' There's so many two-bob sods out there that want to sound like me.
.
.
John has also rocked the world of TV.
' I'm a celebrity, get me out of here.
'Giving us reality TV moments' '.
.
and wildlife programmes to remember.
' Did you see the teeth on that? # We're so pretty # Oh so pretty We're vacant 'John first burst onto the scene 40 years ago, as a penniless 19-year-old, when he was chosen as frontman of a revolutionary new band called The Sex Pistols.
' What he had was this powerful way of staring at you and fixing you in his gaze.
I'm going to get inside your soul, I'm gonna change you! 'In 1976, the group released their first single, Anarchy In The UK.
And went on an early evening chat show to publicise it.
' Punk rockers.
The new craze, they tell me.
It's what? Nothing.
A rude word.
Next Question? No, no.
What was the rude word? Shit.
Say something outrageous, then.
You dirty bastard.
Again.
You dirty I'd never heard swearing, like that, live.
Nah-nah-na-nah-nah.
'British youth had new heroes.
' Two days after that, maybe, at school, people had changed their hair.
I started to see pins all over the placezips.
People turning to punk rockers, man.
'The Sex Pistols sent shockwaves through the establishment.
' I think most of these groups would be vastly improved by sudden death.
The worst, currently, are The Sex Pistols and they are the antithesis of human kind.
Terrible, I think it is.
I think it's disgusting.
'Local authorities up and down the country banned The Sex Pistols from playing.
' They couldn't play.
Cancelled, cancelled, cancelled, cancelled.
'Too hot to handle, The Pistols were also dropped by their record label.
Richard Branson's Virgin stepped in.
' The Sex Pistols actually put Virgin on the map.
You thought you'd gotten rid of us, didn't you? But you were wrong, old bean, because we're back.
'All the outrage and attempts to ban The Pistols simply gave them more publicity and boosted record sales.
' # God save the Queen The fascist regime 'The first single with Virgin was God Save The Queen.
Released to coincide with the Silver jubilee in June 1977.
' Released to coincide with # God save the Queen # 'The Royal Flotilla was due to sail the Thames.
So for a publicity stunt, the band organised their own musical boat trip.
It ended when the police brought them into the dock at Westminster and moved in to make arrests.
' 50 police was waiting.
The police! In the end, at the end of the day, just for a little boat trip.
The Police should not have raided the boat.
If it wasn't The Sex Pistols, there'd be no interest in this boat tonight.
' As a result, I think, made the Pistols all-the-more notorious.
'Johnny Rotten, star of The Sex Pistols, was public enemy number one.
' He was the poster boy for it.
The guy who's the rebel.
They guy you wanna be like.
One of the most startling, destructive, brilliant, expressive, creative figures to have emergednot just in Britain, but across the whole world.
It's an absolute tragedy I've ended up something of a genius.
Oh, that's funny! So you wake up and you are public enemy number one.
What's going through your mind? What an achievement! Did you like it? Was it a thrill? Yeah, absolutely.
Normally, I suppose, most people in the world would be very fearful of that.
I loved it.
I thought, you know, if you can't get them all to love you, well, you can go the opposite.
What was the ethos of you and The Pistols at the time, that you think really hit a nerve with the youth? Well, I suppose, we disliked each other so much that that was gonna come out in the music.
And that anger and that resentment and confusion you have as a teenager .
.
well, we have exemplified that.
Did you become a physical target to people who wanted to make a name for themselves? Oh, yeah, yeah.
Lots of attacks.
It became impossible to do what I always loved to do, which is run around on my own and get up to my own situations, because it would begangs.
What would they do to you? Just try and smash me to pieces.
Cut me up.
I got razored a few times.
A bottle put in my head.
Cuts around here from trying to gouge out my eye.
I got a machete ripped through the jeans.
I was lucky, it just stuck on the bit of the knee bone, there.
Could have tore the muscle out.
Really, really extreme violence.
Did it make you - It was nonsense.
'We love our queen.
You know? Well, I never said I didn't, either.
You know? I just don't like the institution.
When the police boarded your jubilee boat they, apparently, uttered the immortal words, they, apparently, 'Where's Johnny Rotten?" Oh, yes.
Do you remember how you responded? I did.
I pointed to Richard Branson! So I'm amazed he was on there tonight, but - hello, well done, Richard.
He still looks like Guy Fawkes? When you see Richard Branson paying tribute to you and saying that the whole Virgin empire, really, was brought up on The Pistols.
What do you think about that? I think he belittles Mike 0ldfield's Tubular Bells.
At the height of your fame, John, you said, At the height of your fame, 'As the, so-called, King of Punk, I was getting almost too much sexual attention, suddenly.
Oh, yeah.
Very shy about that.
I mean, I've always considered myself hideously ugly and deformed.
You know, the hunchback that I had? Can you notice it? Did you start to embrace the groupie culture? Ernot when the camera was on.
You described sex as, 'Two minutes of squelching noises.
Originally, yeah.
That's what ever teenager thinks, isn't it? Have things improved over the years? Yeah.
A few years later, I realised it was five minutes and 30 seconds.
When that memory comes back and it clicks Oh, my God, it's my mum.
How could I have not recognised her? Let's go back to where it all started.
You were born John Joseph Lydon in January 1956.
Your parents were John and Eileen, who were both Irish immigrants and you had three younger brothers - Bobby, Jimmy and Martin.
Martin.
What was life like in the household? Erwell, we only had two rooms.
The toilet was an outdoor one in the back yard which was open to the Public.
What is the reality of living in such cramped conditions when there are so many people there? Closenessis a good thing.
I think it ties you together, far more important than separating.
I think it's a very, very good thing for parents to be in the same room as very young children.
The bond is then forever.
When you were seven years old, you were diagnosed with meningitis.
Do you remember anything about to the build-up to it, or not? Ermintense, serious headaches, thatso severe.
lt's just, absolutely, beyond even screaming in pain or crying.
That was the fluid going into the brain.
I did not know that.
just seven years old, you are getting these terrible headaches.
You go into hospital.
.
? In hospital for a year.
A coma for four months.
Nearly four months, or thereabouts.
And then woke up not knowing who I wasat all.
No memory of anything.
I couldn't even walk or talk or nothing.
Zero.
And yet, inside .
.
I wanted to communicate but physically couldn't.
Ermto be able to come back and find out who I really was Ermto be able to come back I took the next four years.
And I had to completely believe in what every human being was saying to me, in order to find out who I was.
And that stuck with me to this day.
That's why I can't tolerate liars.
I depended on these two strangers telling me the were my parents.
To believe that.
I was a very, very worried kid .
.
between seven, going on eight.
Leaving that hospital, thinking that I was always part of that institution and they were selling me off to two complete strangers.
I had to believe I belonged somewhere.
Right.
But, I mean, terrifying for your parents? I would say, yeah, absolutely.
Andl know I shouldn't feel guilt about it, but when I look back on it, the pain they must have gone through.
You know? Because I knew what I was going through.
I just did not know them.
You wake up - So years later, when that memory comes back and it clicks.
Oh, my God, it's my mum.
How could I have not recognised her? How long did it take you to realise these were your parents? A couple of years, drifting in and out.
My dad took longer.
He seemed to me to be this really nasty, aggressive person.
He wasn't at all.
It was just his gruff way.
He was very young, my dad, when they had me.
Very young.
Did your full memory return, so that you could remember everything? Everything and quite amazing how much of it came back.
Even things that, I suppose, in normal life, I wouldn't have remembered.
lt's an odd thing, the memory, how it can be stolen from you.
But it's always in there, somewhere.
lt's just a matter of unlocking it.
Would you have been the creative, energetic, tour-de-force that you became without that? Idon't know.
But let's say it helps.
I really does.
It strengthens your character.
John, your rise to fame was fast and furious.
I am John and I was born in London 'John grew up on the estates of north London.
And from an early age, liked to look different.
' John stood out like a beacon.
He stood out like a beacon.
Inmore ways than one.
John's dada was very strict.
John wasn't allowed to dye his hair.
He got thrown out, I think, for dying it green.
You look so bloody boring, I think John's mum was a little bit more laid back and chilled.
She also used to knit these mohair jumpers which John wore in the 70's and when The Pistols were famous.
John and his mum were very, very, very, very close.
He loved his mum and she loved him.
'As frontman of The Sex Pistols, John, along with his best mate John Simon Ritchie, known as Sid Vicious, created a whole new iconic look.
' I would get t-shirts and I would buy zips, and I'd sow two of the zips into the t-shirt and then cut them.
Safety pins in the ears.
what is your dress made from? A plastic bin liner.
It was like a party atmosphere but with the sinister undertone because he was going to be the ringmaster.
Don't care 'The Pistols' scary image and notoriety meant no venues would book them for gigs.
So at the beginning of 1978, manager Malcolm McLaren took them to America.
' To me, it seemed really odd that they did an American tourat all.
I think that they're sickening and disgusting.
They went to Texas, they went to the Longhorn Ballroom.
They went to places no-one's seen anyone with dodgy hair.
You've gotta have a pair of nuts to go down there and play in them gaffs.
'And backstage, tensions were high.
John was arguing with Malcolm McLaren and best friend Sid, who had a heroin addiction.
' John had had enough of Malcolm and just, I think, couldn't stand continuing with him any more.
You'll get one number and one number only, because I am a lazy bastard.
'The band's gig in San Francisco on 4th January 1978, was to be John's final performance with The Sex Pistols.
' Oh, bollocks, Why should I carry on? Ah-ha-ha.
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? He'd had enough.
You could see that.
You watch footage of it, he'd had enough.
You split up with the Pistols, how are you occupying your time? Boringly.
Would you like to start another band? 'Within six months of leaving The Pistols, John was back, 'with his new band Public Image Limited.
Also known as PIL.
' After the break-up of The Sex Pistols, you did get excited about what John Lydon was going to do next.
Punk had dried up, musically, so you wanted something strange and peculiar and unexpected.
And he did it.
He invented a new kind of way of making music.
Public enemy 'But as their first single hit the top ten, John was dealing with tragedy in his private life.
His mother, Eileen, had been diagnosed with terminal cancer.
' It was awful, it was awful, because his mum was so special.
You know what I mean? 'She passed away in November 1978, at the age of just 46.
' John was a bit of a mummy's boy.
So I think it was quite a difficult period when she passed.
'Then, just over two months later, John suffered another terrible blow.
' Rock star Sid Vicious is dead, after taking an overdose of heroin last night.
It was a dark period for John, but there was, funny enough, in it, as always, there was humour in that, you know? We had a mate working the film game, We had a mate and John got a Load of props and he turned the room into, like, Highgate Cemetery.
Really! And slept in it like that.
But it was like, literally, living in a crypt.
His mum had died.
Sid Vicious is dead.
You know, there's this huge comedown off the insane mountain top that was the Sex Pistols.
He had to keep going, you know? He couldn't stop.
So sometimes, he was running on empty.
You were just 22 years old, though, and you've just lost your mother You were just 22 years old, though, and your close friendSid.
I want to talk, first of all, about your mum.
Did you feel cheated that you lost her so young? Did you feel angry? What were your emotions at the time? It's the worst thing in the world, to visit, I suppose, anybody you know in any way at all.
When it's as close as a parent, to hear them say, 'I'm going to fight this, I'm going to beat this.
It'soh! You mean, knowing that the chances are they can't? Inevitable.
Yeahand to know she was dying in such pain.
just such pain and didn't want the painkillers because they make you lose your mind.
Your dad died in 2008, so he saw your career develop and all the twists and turns.
Did he go from being terrified by what he saw, to enjoying the ride in the end? But my dad was an absolute teaser.
So his way would always be, Why don't you just write a hit single, Johnny? Knowing that that would annoy the hell out of me.
lt's odd.
It was only towards the end of his life, that I sussed his humour and just how funny it was.
Very dry.
I always thought he was just nasty and it's not, at all.
There was a great sense of wit in him.
And I tell you, I see it in myself, sometimes, I say things and I realise, that's my dad, there, talking.
Let's turn to Sid Vicious.
He died of a heroin overdose on 2nd February 1979.
Inevitable.
Sid was my mate and all that, but I watched him slowly destroy himself, so I've got to be honest.
It came as no surprise.
It wasn't overwhelmingly catastrophic.
because he killed himself, as indeed most people who mess about with heroin they lose their souls, way, way, way earlier.
It's just waiting for the body to finally keel over.
Sid had been accused of murdering his girlfriend, Nancy.
Yeah.
What was your reaction to that? Impossible to believe, As it's No, he's just not a violent person.
Sidney couldn't fight his way out of a crisp bag.
Poor thing.
lt's Maybe the heroin? I don't know.
But I couldn't imagine him killing his girlfriend for any particular reason.
What do you think probably happened? I think they had a bit of a problem with the drug dealers and owed far too much money.
Which is a much more likely scenario.
Were you ever big into the drug scene, or not? No, anything that keeps me awake is fine, but no kind of drug that has any suppressant or downer in it.
lt's erm To this day, I have troubles going to sleep at night.
I'll fight to the bitter end, until I, quite literally, pass out, because I've always still of that thing, I might wake up and not remember who I am.
That's You still live with that fear? Oh, yeah.
There's nothing worse than that.
To absolutely not belong to anybody.
That's the ultimate pain.
This might be the most damning allegation so far, that you're a lovely, nice person.
Tell me about style.
What's been your favourite look, of all of them, over the years? I quite like the ginger look when I was in The Pistols.
It was called Golden Chestnut and they don't make it any more.
I just like the shock of it.
Cos I liked conkers and I liked playing conkers, so it reminded me of that.
Your dad, apparently, said you looked like a Brussels sprout? Yeah, that was the green.
That was the final straw.
Get your hair cut! So off I went and had it dyed bright green.
You look like a Brussels sprout! You look ' And that was it.
Out I went.
The punk look, as defined by The Pistols, was clothes held together by safety pins.
Was it deliberate, or was it just a sort of accident? No.
lt's what you have to do.
Your jumper is falling apart, you've got to keep it on, it's cold.
And I quite like the look of it and I thought, "Well, if I put a few together, that's, kind of like, a cheap version of armouror chain mail.
And one thing leads to another.
I do have a visual touch with it.
I am aware of it creating an imagery.
I have always loved what clothes can do.
You were once admitted to hospital because of a certain item of clothing? Oh, God, yeah.
Walthamstow.
I bought one of these things out of Vivienne Westwood's shop.
It was a skin-tight polar neck, rubber jumper thing.
Right? And up I trot on stage, doing my Sex Pistols bit.
And, I think, a song and a half later, I dehydrated so quickly that I passed out and had to be cut out of it.
That really annoyed meand I used safety pins to put it back together.
John, music hasn't been the only passion in your life.
'As the 1980s dawned, John was taking on new musical challenges.
' # Could be wrong # I could be right PIL, for John, is probably the thing that I think he is most proud of.
Post Sex Pistols, it was his opportunity to be as creative as he possibly could be.
We ain't no band, we're a company.
It's simple.
Nothing to do with rock and roll.
PIL were much moreexperimental and ahead of the time.
Hate it or love it.
It doesn't matter.
It was the whole way, you know, the combination of sounds.
The studio, electronics.
Avant garde influences.
It's still innovative when you play it today.
It's fresh.
'John had also met and fallen in love with a German woman, Nora Forster.
' just inside and out, Nora has always been a beautiful woman.
Do you know what I mean? They've got such a close relationship.
He absolutely worships her.
They are meant for each other, them two.
'Nora moved with John to the US to set up a new life in LA.
' This is not a love song The extremes of The United States Of America appeals to him, you know? And the, sort of, absurdity of the culture.
John lives in a really cool part of LA, where it's just very eccentric millionaires.
Somewhere where someone like Johnny Lydon can walk around and not really be noticed.
He and Nora lead a very private life.
They are an extraordinary couple.
Don't you find it ironic, that they've been together for nearly 35 years, absolutely devoted to each other, and yet his image is anti-establishment? He has always challenged convention and yet, secretly, he's very conventional.
I think that's probably the shocking truth, that he's actually a very normal, unusually sensitive, highly-creative, nice, loving person.
He is lovely, yeah, he is nice.
He makes out he's not.
No, he's lovely.
I mean, this might be the most damning allegation so far, that you're a lovely, nice person.
I think I'm completely misunderstood.
Listen, absolutely loving your partner, it doesn't make you conventional oran anarchist or anything at all.
That's the reality for me.
I love the people I work with.
l love the peoplemy family members.
And I particularly love Nora.
We are just made in heaven.
We are so awkwardly different.
lt's the best person in the world I've ever known.
Where did you meet Nora? Erl think it might have been a Sex Pistols gig and she was told terrible things about me and that, absolutely, drew her straight to me And we had a huge row.
And from that .
.
we ended up slinging insults and burst out into laughter.
And that's how our life has been, ever since.
We have really volatile moments and then just can't keep up the negative momentum because there's so much more going on.
What did your dad say when you first took her home.
Do you remember? Oh, my God, Johnny, she's old enough to be going out with me! He did! Fancy your chances, Daddy? She is 14 years older than you? Yeah.
Does that matter? Has it ever mattered? Not at all.
Have you ever noticed the age difference? No.
You're a toy boy, basically? I love it.
Are you a bit of an old softy behind closed doors? Are you a romantic? I'm a complete huggy bunny.
Are you? Yeah, I am.
Yeah.
A huggy bunny? Yeah.
A word I'd never thought I'd use about you.
Are you romantic? Do you do romantic things? Very romanticbut not in the way you'd think.
lt's not flowers on deliberate occasions.
It would be a spur-of-the-moment kind of thing.
Like what? WellNora, at the moment, you can't buy tights in LA, so I'm gonna go to Harrods tomorrow and get her a few pairs! But that is a very romantic thing to do.
Well, there's a necessity, so I meet the need.
That's how we are.
You and Nora had an extraordinarily fortunate escape, from certain death.
Tell me about that.
Pan AM.
Yes, the Lockerbie flight.
We were booked on to that.
And I've always moaned to Nora, because she can be so slow on timing.
She's always late for everything and she hadn't packed the case.
And erit was obvious we were gonna miss the flight.
So we just thought, we'll fly out the next morning and didn't bother to tell anyone.
And then, of course, we went back to bed, being what we are.
Ermand then everybody presumed we were dead, because the Lockerbie flight went down.
What is the secret, John, of a long-lasting relationship? Never mind marriage, just a relationship, do you think? Really, seriously good, open rows.
Really? Yes.
Say everything.
Throw it all out and then have a great sense of humourabout being wrong.
Well, I'm still here and the rest of them, what are still alive, nice bit of jail time for them.
Jail time! What has completely turned left-field here, an unbroadcast section of a BBC radio interview you did in 1978 recently came to light.
Included on a PIL album.
And you talked about making a film where you kill famous people.
This has never been played on television before, but it has a particular relevance.
Let's listen to this.
So who else is on the goner list?' ' 'oh, it's endless.
Believe me.
I just wanna make a film of it.
On film.
I'd like to kill Jimmy Savile.
I think he's a hypocrite.
' Weren't I right! 'He's into all kinds of seediness, that we all know about, we're not allowed to talk about.
I know some rumours.
I bet none of this will be allowed out.
' 'I shouldn't imagine libellous stuff will be allowed out.
' 'Nothing I said is libel.
' Sounds a bit harsh, doing a death list there! Sometimes you are contentious in life, just because you're bored of that current moment.
But put aside the rhetoric you were using, the fact that in 1978, at the height of The Sex Pistols' explosion, there you are, saying about jimmy Savile, 'He was into all kinds of seediness that we all knew about, but weren't allowed to talk about it.
I know some rumours.
So you had heard the kind of thing that we now know about him, or stuff like that? Yeah.
I think most kids did, too.
Most kids wanted to go to Top Of The Pops, but we all knew what that cigar-muncher was up to.
But I'm very, very bitter that the likes of Savile and the rest of them were allowed to continue.
Did you ever try and do anything about Savile? I did my bit, I said what I had to.
Did they air that? No.
It just got suppressed? Yeah.
For legal reasons? Yeah.
I found myself being banned from BBC radio, there, for quite a while.
For my contentious behaviour.
Because of that interview? They wouldn't state this directly.
It would be other excuses.
It's shocking! He got away with it for another 30 years.
Not only him, a whole bunch of them.
And these are the purveyors of good taste, huh? You were too offensive? Brilliant, isn't it! Well, I'm still here and the rest of them, what are still alive, nice bit of jail time for them.
Jail time! I have to read this.
The BBC has said it's appalled by Savile's crimes and that the Dame Janet Smith review is considering the culture and practices of the BBC during that period.
John Lydon, your public image has taken you from the stage, to the jungle, with a bit of butter thrown in for good measure.
Just peaceor peace off! 'As he turned 40, John was as anarchic as ever.
' He's created a life for himself where he can do what he wants to do.
He doesn't give a shit what you think.
If you don't like it, sod off.
'By the mid '90s, aspects of John's life were coming full circle.
The Sex Pistols reformed for a reunion tour.
' Hello, my name is John.
I'm here to represent The Sex Pistols, the band I used to be in and still am when it suits me.
You're only 29 I think he has an urge as a musician, probably, to make music and tour and create.
I think, sometimes, it's put into bed a lot of stuff that's, kind of, needed to be resolved.
'Screen stardom also beckoned.
John's appearance on I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here had more than ten million people tuning in.
' Every now and again, Johnny Rotten would pop out and try and blow his nose with no handkerchief.
Do you have to do that, John? Do you have to do that? And then he'd become this lovely, quite sophisticated, deep-thinking guy again.
God's got a lot to answer for, but he's got a lot to be appreciated for too.
Look at me, I'm so at one with nature.
People out there, who didn't know much about John, who didn't know much about the music he was in and stuff like that, got to know a little bit more about John as a person.
'John's new mainstream popularity led to TV presenting roles.
' You keep that camera pointed there, right? You keep that camera I'm an ugly old sod, but, you know, what you're about to see is a proper set of dentures.
just when you think you know what he's gonna do, he'll do something completely different.
Do I buy Country Life butter because it's British? 'And there were advertising contracts.
' And there's the voice of the revolution, you know, advertising butter in the mosthilarious way.
People could say, "Oh, he's selling out" You know what I mean? Butthe message I got from it is, If Johnny Lydon says this butters nice, then it's nice.
'With the money he made from his media commitments, John re-launched his band PIL.
' I want the trouble trouble trouble on the double double double - 'Now John and PIL are back in the studio with a single, Double Trouble, from the new album - What The World Needs Now.
' I think PIL continues to, sort of, evolve, in a way.
I think, in some ways, in some of the reformings of PIL, he's had such, such fantastic musicians, that it's actually got better.
The music's got better.
He's built a very solid career over many years, producingproducing great music.
You cannot refute how original he is.
When you see him perform, It's not just about music.
You see what it means to a lot of people.
I've been dreaming in the Garden Of Eden They are so passionate about what he means.
Because he's probably done so much for a generation.
so it's almost like he's their voice.
Everybody knows John, everybody knows John.
Valour to the end, you know? Much I love, much I love.
Ah, Reggie.
Do you think that PIL is producing, as someone suggested there, ever-better music, because of the quality of the musicians you have involved? Yeah.
Well, they became quality acts because we endured so long.
I mean, You're bound to improve.
I did that myself.
I think I'm a hell of a lot further down the field now, because I didn't give up, I kept at it.
because I didn't give up, What's next for PIL A newer album after this new album.
What we do, we find it works very well, we make the money by touring, and that money we've made then goes into recording, ' and then the cycle continues.
lt's very healthy that way.
Do you still feel slightly anarchic? I don't suppose I ever did.
I don't understand anarchy in that way, because it seems to be to me, mind games for the middle class.
So you're not really an anarchist, are you? I don't believe in anarchy for the sake of it.
No, because You're just, ultimately, Just destroying something with nothing to replace it.
That's just sheer spite and destruction.
And also, when I see anarchists, I'm appalled.
You go to these anarchist marches, they're all wearing designer boots, trousers, rucksacks, cell phones and they fly around the country on corporate airlines to do it.
They're a disgrace to anarchists, aren't they? They absolutely are.
And I don't like anything that offers a negative to other human beings.
I don't find that to be very useful.
Anarchyit's irony.
I'm either pretty or vacant.
What would your message be to those pseudo-anarchists who preach the violence and everything else? Have yourself filmed and show it to your mums and dads.
See how smug you feel then! How would you like to be remembered? Er I don't know if I want a grave or any of that, or a tombstone.
I thinkthe best and most decent thing I could do, would be to donate my body to Well, anybody that wants a spare part.
Queue up for the Johnny Rotten body parts.
Yes.
I wouldn't recommend you buy the penis.
I will er I will have your teeth if it comes to it.
There aren't none left! John, it's been fantastic, talking to you.
Thank you for having us.
Now I can rush off to the toilet! John Lydon.
Peace.